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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:47 pm 
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Gelgoog jager and Gelgoog marine commander type has equal or more thrust than Kampfer and weaker reactors yet able to use beam machineguns.

For Gyan IIRC there were plan for Gyan for Earth use, and probably Galbaldy too [of course it doesn't go far]. Might be part swap like Dom Funf/tropen?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:07 pm 
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Maybe before it got rejected and dropped with only 3 prototypes made (with 1 lost by M'Quve).

Also, weaker reactors don't always equate to "no beam weapons" either nor does stronger mean they "must" be able to use them. It is completely unknown how much reactor output is required to use beam weapons in general much less effectively.

Like the Gyan couldn't power more than its beam saber last I saw and its reactor output is barely lower than the Gelgoog's, the Zaku II R-2 was unable to use beam weapons at all and its reactor output was only 30 kW less than the Gyan's (probably because of, like the Kampfer, a lot of power being directed to its stronger thrusters to allow its speed and mobility), and the Hizack couldn't use more than 1 and so on.

I do believe that a lot of the Kampfer's reactor power is being given to its multiple large thrusters to enable the its speed and because of that, the addition of beam weapons would probably end up being too much of a drain, which is why they stuck with conventional weaponry pretty often, besides saving money and making it easier for maintenance.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:12 pm 
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A bit more info on the purpose of the Kaempfer, and its known variations. First, from the Master Grade kit manual...

Quote:
The machines of the YMS-16 series included several plans and variations, depending on which secondary functions were being added to the mobile suit. The YMS-17 was a plan with various adaptive capabilities designed mainly for anti-mobile suit combat, intended purely as a "superior mobile suit," and to some extent it also represented a hybridization of existing machines. As for the YMS-18 plan, this was aimed at pioneering new concepts and applications for the mobile suit itself, unrelated to existing categories. (It is said there was also a hybrid of the Dom and Gelgoog, and a machine plan that incorporated the tactical use of Newtype abilities.)

The Kaempfer corresponds to the machine classified as the E type (for "einhauen," or "assault") in the YMS-18 draft plan. This was a specialized machine with the ability to singlehandedly engage in anti-mobile suit combat and penetrate enemy defensive lines. (The term "kampf" includes the meaning of melee combat.) It could make hit-and-run attacks using the high-output vernier thrusters installed throughout its body, overcoming the enemy's bases and main forces. Based on these tactics, latches for weapon storage were installed all over its body, and in order to prevent the generator output from being reduced, its only beam weapons were beam sabers. The shape of its armor left the thrusters almost completely exposed, and its front cross-section was very small when in forward-facing position, but it could also be said that virtually no consideration was given to "returning" after the assault.


By this explanation, the basic attributes of the Kaempfer - a high-speed assault machine laden with weapons, designed to break through enemy lines and wipe out multiple enemy mobile suits - are specific to the E type. (This also makes it sound like it's intended for suicide missions!) The other machines in the YMS-18 plan could have entirely different functions, and based on the YMS-16 example, they might even be completely different machines.

The original 1/144 kit manual, on the other hand, indicates that the Kaempfer was planned as an assault type all along, and the E type is just the most "balanced" version. Here's the "deployment status" sidebar that first described the prototype and F type.

Quote:
The only surviving record of the MS-18 is that one unit of the E type was assigned to the Cyclops special forces team. In the E type, all its functions were finally balanced, and all that was left was to perform concrete functional testing. For this reason, its assignment to the Cyclops team doubled as a combat test. It is rumored that the machines prepared by the Zeon forces included this E type, the YMS-18 which was initially developed for use in a decisive battle for the homeland, and an F type that meant to be armed mainly with beam weapons.


"Decisive battle for the homeland" is actually the same phrase they normally use to describe the Pezun project, which also includes an "assault type" mobile suit in the form of the MS-13 Gassha. Hm...

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:23 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha: I don't see your point here since both jager and marine commander have equal or More thruster power plus Weaker reactor than Kampfer. I understand that it would depend on many factors whether or not MS can or cannot use projectile beam weapon. In the case of e-type Kampfer according to Mark beam projectiles are omitted in order to use thrusters continuously at high speed. Perhaps Gelgoog jager doesn't have to keep its speed up all the time.

Thanks a lot for Kampfer info Mark. F-type beam version would be quite interesting. Any pic? Is Akira's machine [YMS-18] supposed to be some kind of super machine [decisive battle for the homeland]?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:29 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
domtropen wrote:
Thanks a lot for Gelgoog info. Wondering does Gyan have butt and leg thrusters?

Not as far as I know, which is kind of odd given that it was created by the same developer as the Dom. If anything, the Gyan seems more like an outgrowth of the doomed Zudah lineage, which might explain why its early model number was MS-X10.

The Gyan strikes me as closest attempt by the Zeon Archduchy in building a "Zeon Gundam", given some of its design features such as the chest vents, Guncannon-esque backpack, beam saber, slender legs with only feet thrusters, etc.
Perhaps the Gyan is first Zeon MS influenced directly by the Gundam, which itself was designed as a close combat MS from the outset.

It might even be that the Zudah-Gyan (light MS) projects and Dom-Rick Dom (heavy MS) projects were headed by different teams within Zimmad, since the Gyan and Dom/Rick Dom (and perhaps Zudah and Dom) seem to have overlapping development cycles.

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It's possible that the Kaempfer was created by Mobile Assault Force engineers at Granada, with no involvement from the usual development companies, or that it was jointly developed by multiple companies. It also occurs to me that the "E" suffix in its model number, which the MG kit manual claims is for "Einhauen" ("assault"), is also used by the Z'Gok E (where it stands for "Experiment"). So perhaps MIP, the developer of the Z'Gok, might be a long-shot candidate?

-- Mark
The Kämpfer might be Zeon's equivalent of the Third Reich's Volksjäger: A very rapidly developed MS to be built with non-strategic materials (hence no expensive armor material or beam rifles), to be operated by Zeon guerillas (or loyal civilians) using minimal technical support.

Going back to my earlier speculation, perhaps this machine was designed by the same engineers responsible for the Dom and Rick Dom?
For example, the Kämpfer reallies heavily on bazookas, just like the (Rick) Dom, and is similarly stout in appearance. Also the relatively remarkable origins of the Dom and Rick Dom point towards them being designed by original thinkers, who were perhaps perfectly suited to create something like the MS-18E.

By the way, is there any info regarding Yutaka Izubuchi's thoughts on creating this design, similar to his comments on the Zudah being designed with Zimmad MSes in mind, or the Gelgoog Jäger being a 'Gabaldyfied' Gelgoog stemming from his dislike of the original Gelgoog?
If so, that could be the next best thing to having an official explanation of the Kämpfer's creators/creation.

Edit:
I had the browser open for too long, not noticing page 4...

"Decisive Battle for the Homeland" indeed sounds like Volksjager-inspired to me. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:13 pm 
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On the Gelgoog comparison: In the animation, high-powered types like the Gelgoog Jaeger and Gelgoog Marine never seem to use all their thrusters at the same time. And of course, the Dom can cruise with only its leg engines, saving the body thrusters for special occasions. The Kaempfer, on the other hand, has to run all its thrusters at once to "fly" along the ground. So this seems a bit apples-and-oranges.


domtropen wrote:
Thanks a lot for Kampfer info Mark. F-type beam version would be quite interesting. Any pic? Is Akira's machine [YMS-18] supposed to be some kind of super machine [decisive battle for the homeland]?

I don't think we've ever seen a pic of the F type. The variation from the original kit manual, labeled there as "MS-18 prototype plan," has since been established as the YMS-18. But as T.V. notes, the "decisive battle for the homeland" description doesn't necessarily mean it's a "super-machine"...


T.V. wrote:
The Gyan strikes me as closest attempt by the Zeon Archduchy in building a "Zeon Gundam", given some of its design features such as the chest vents, Guncannon-esque backpack, beam saber, slender legs with only feet thrusters, etc.
Perhaps the Gyan is first Zeon MS influenced directly by the Gundam, which itself was designed as a close combat MS from the outset.

Sounds about right to me. The MSV Handbooks explicitly state that the later Zeon machines became pretty much Gundam clones:

Quote:
By the time beam weapons were implemented, Zeon's mobile suit combat concepts had become identical to those of the Federation Forces. The MS-11, like the MS-15 for melee combat use, could still be identified as a Principality of Zeon machine in terms of form, but in terms of function it was no different from the RX-78.

Another characteristic of the second-stage main mobile suit concept was the same separation of the armor system seen in the MS-07. With the mass production of Federation Forces mobile suits, it could only be expected that mobile suit combat would focus even more on melee fighting.

In other words, they'd cribbed all their ideas for beam weapons from the Gundam example, as well as the standard use of shields ("separation of the armor system"). Retroactively, we can trace some of the Gyan's features back to the Zudah, but otherwise it seems very Gundam-esque.

Quote:
The Kämpfer might be Zeon's equivalent of the Third Reich's Volksjäger: A very rapidly developed MS to be built with non-strategic materials (hence no expensive armor material or beam rifles), to be operated by Zeon guerillas (or loyal civilians) using minimal technical support.

A very interesting idea! Although some accounts (such as the MG kit manual) position the Kaempfer as an attempt to create an almighty Gundam-type superweapon, this seems a bit redundant when you already have mobile armor development underway. And certainly, a lot of the Kaempfer's attributes - its small size, use of standard weaponry, ease of shipping and assembly, and apparent disposability - seem to point to a last-ditch mass production design instead.

This would actually be consistent with the descriptions of the Pezun series. These were meant to quickly shore up Zeon's defenses in preparation for a "decisive battle for the homeland," and their designs place a premium on simplicity and low production cost. Likewise, in World War II, Germany hedged its bets with the Volksjäger, and Japan developed rocket-powered kamikaze craft like the Ohka.

I'm still sifting through the bookshelf for Kaempfer-related info. The writeup in the Izubuchi art book is pretty vague - the only interesting comment is that, with its heavy armament, it sacrifices armor protection in order to keep its mobility, and that this is the same concept as Japanese fighter planes. The "Gundam The Movies" film comic books, though, make the interesting claim that the Kaempfer is actually based on the Zaku, and that its external differences are largely cosmetic. Its lack of any beam weapons other than beam sabers is attributed to the inherent limitations of its generator.

The notion that the Kaempfer is derived from the Zaku would certainly explain its unusually small size (which would be enough to rule out a direct relation to the Dom, Gyan, or Gelgoog). This also seems compatible with the notion that it's a kind of low-budget, rocket-powered suicide machine - designed to wreak maximum damage on the enemy per unit produced, with little consideration for the pilot's safe return. Perhaps the relevant comparison here would be with machines like the Dra-C (also classified as an assault mobile suit) and the Oggo (a resource-maximizing machine made from surplus parts, with extra weapons strapped onto it)? When you really examine the Kaempfer, it does seem a lot cruder and simpler than a high-end "mock Gundam" such as the Gelgoog, and one wonders how much the machine itself would really cost relative to its weapons payload.

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 6:51 pm 
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I never noticed the Kämpfer's small size until you mentioned it.

The idea of the MS-18 being based on the Zaku seems an interesting thought, especially when you consider 0080's MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai.

They're nearly identical in terms of height, while the Kämpfer is about 13 metric tons lighter than the Zaku Kai in terms of dry weight.
Also, they have a near identical crotch design and share a very similar thruster layout on the chest, back, and lower legs, while their cockpits are identical* (UMP-versions) with the same point of entry.
When squeezing your eyes you could see similarities in the feet design as well.

Given the above, perhaps the Kämpfer being a radical "decisive battle" offshoot of the Zaku Kai doesn't sound too implausible.


*The lineart for the cockpit of the MS-18E in Yutaka Izubuchi's Mechanical Design Works is identical to the cockpit lineart of the Zaku Kai in Gundam Mechanics I.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:12 pm 
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T.V. wrote:
The idea of the MS-18 being based on the Zaku seems an interesting thought, especially when you consider 0080's MS-06FZ Zaku II Kai.

They're nearly identical in terms of height, while the Kämpfer is about 13 metric tons lighter than the Zaku Kai in terms of dry weight.
Also, they have a near identical crotch design and share a very similar thruster layout on the chest, back, and lower legs, while their cockpits are identical* (UMP-versions) with the same point of entry.
When squeezing your eyes you could see similarities in the feet design as well.

Given the above, perhaps the Kämpfer being a radical "decisive battle" offshoot of the Zaku Kai doesn't sound too implausible.

This notion is actually endorsed by the package text on the Zeonography toy, which is probably the closest we've come to an "official" release of the YMS-18. Here's the relevant passage:

Quote:
The YMS-18 Kaempfer (Prototype), also known as the Prototype Kaempfer, is a prototype machine derived from the YMS-18 plan and based on a second-stage production mobile suit (probably the MS-06FZ Zaku II FZ).


This appears to distinguish between the "YMS-18 plan" and the Prototype Kaempfer itself, so perhaps we're meant to think of the latter as one specific implementation of the original plan. Comparing the MS-06FZ, YMS-18, and MS-18E side by side, it's certainly possible to imagine an evolutionary path connecting them - especially if you look at the front of the torso - but perhaps the height is the real clincher here.

A Zaku-based origin for the Kaempfer is certainly more compatible with the idea of a disposable "decisive homeland battle" machine, too. That still strikes me as the most interesting of the possibilities we've discussed, although the supporting evidence on the Japanese side is still flimsier than I'd like...

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 1:33 pm 
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So Zeon goes from making newbie friendly MS for newbie pilot to super performance MS-coffin with expendable pilot... :mrgreen:

So what is Sunrise/bandai official take on Kampfer? Is it intend to be uber Kamikaze machine or Volksjäger - high performance but cheap machine that can be thrown away rather than fixed?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 6:46 pm 
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domtropen wrote:
So what is Sunrise/bandai official take on Kampfer?


It doesn't has much info, but this is from the Sunrise's Gundam.info site, translated with google:

One Year War when the Duchy of Zeon forces, which were developed for assault aircraft. Has a higher thrust, while the back with the body, such as many heavy weapons, which can have the flight under gravity.
Secretly brought into the side should be neutral zone 6 are assembled inside, Cyclops Team Gundam NT in-compromise strategy was used: 1. The pilot, Ensign Mikhail Kaminsky.
Shotgun and Shutsurumu Faust, with a variety of handheld weapons. Scarlett wipe the machine alone to 6. You can also use the Main Chain, Gundam NT-Bum Cho has been successful in destroying armor 1.
The sortie to take the new Gundam, Kampfer was a good fight against the Earth Federation Army Guard. Armed with superior performance well beyond normal expectations in both movement speed, mobile suit was for assault.


Edit: There's also the profile on the official gundam0080.net site:

MS-specific specifications for the assault that was developed in the late war against the local Zeon. The tactics used by the Rubicon secretly brought into the side six degraded by Team Cyclops state.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 9:14 am 
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That's nor really much more than what happen in War in the pocket... :(

Anyway I doubt that Kampfer or even Dra-C are produced with suicide in mind though. For suicide machine they can simply revert to used space fighter with some booster attached, some machineguns attached and load of explosives.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 1:34 pm 
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Well, the Dra-C may have been used for recon, but it was also made to be a combat MS too (as shown in 0083 and such). When you consider how lightly armed and armored it is, it doesn't seem like a mobile suit that was meant to, or at least had a high chance of, return if it goes into combat. I mean, the couple we've really seen do anything in 0083 both got destroyed pretty pitifully; 1 by Kou when he blocked its beam saber strike with his jitte and slicing it in half, and the other being destroyed simply by being damaged enough by smacking into the side of Monsha's GM Custom in exchange for only taking off his left arm.

It's possible the Kampfer was seen in a similar war, only as a full MS that was meant to do as much damage as possible, as quickly as possible, before going down, which is pretty much what was done in 0080. May have failed its primary objective in destroying the Alex (though it did spend most of its time and weapons on everything else =\ ), but otherwise, it did a lot of damage to the Federation forces in the area.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 2:37 pm 
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These are the more reason they are not likely kamikaze machines. The Dra-C that engages Kou expects to cut Kou's GP-01FB in half, not trying to ram him to make big fireworks. I would need to rewatch the crash screen with Monsha to see whether or not they try to cut each other up.

About fragility: MS projectile weapons from late OYW onwards seem to be quite effective, beam or not. In Unicorn we see Gera Doga got destroyed quickly by Loto's cannon, and IIRC Gera doga in Char's counter attack got busted by 90mm vulcan. Even with the thin armor/agility concept I doubt Gera doga is designed to be fragile disposable machine. For Kampfer to be disposible it is more likely in such special mission for pilot to discard it [if it is not able to go on] after the attack and escape to fight another day rather than keep fighting till they die and send out another suicide pilot.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:40 pm 
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"Suicide mission" does not (always) mean "ram and explode to destroy enemies/damage battleships"-based kamikaze runs like Gato does (even then, he did not do so until he was about to be destroyed anyway, so he went down in a blaze of glory like Garma tried rather than simply be shot down in "disgrace") or like the Japanese did in WWII. It usually means that the odds of the MS and/or pilot returning alive/intact are very low, but not 0, so there is a high possibility of them being destroyed (like 08th MS Team had Shiro's "redemption" mission as only 18% chance of survival, thus a "suicide mission" mostly).

The sole purpose of a kamikaze is to go in and kill themselves in the effort of also hurting the enemy.

In this case, the odds were very much against the Kampfer (but still a chance of returning) in there being a much heavier Federation presence in and around Libot than Zeon forces, so there wasn't really any chance of reinforcements to support the Kampfer's attack run, thus forcing it to go in all by itself against such numbers on top of having the Alex itself to worry about.

In the end, that's what it turned out to be; a suicide mission, not a kamikaze as the Kampfer didn't just charge in, smash into the Alex, and destroying both units and killing both pilots.

The same could be said earlier in 0083 with Gato and the GP02A's atomic run on Konpeitoh. There was a high possibility of the whole operation failing while hinging on that 1 run because of numerous battleships and Mobile Suits in the way, despite the distraction attacks. Or for ANY pilot who has to go out into combat in a Ball unit or a Public could be said is being sent on a suicide mission.

Pretty much things like that.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 6:17 pm 
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I think there is a distinction between going out in a Ball than going out in a rocket with cockpit. Being likely to die is quite a lot different from going out in order to die. I doubt Kampfer is designed to keep fighting till getting destroyed without a thought of pilot coming back or having very low chance of survival for the pilot.

Dra-C: Well Dra-C has Zaku F2's body, so it has pretty the same body armor as Zaku F2. It is equipped with more or less the same weapon function as a Zaku or other grunt MSs: a gun good enough to gun most target down, a shield, and a melee weapon [beam saber], basically no less well armed than usual MS. It is more like MA than MS and for its interception/recon role it is pretty good design. Obviously Delaz Fleet, which is pretty short on manpower, is unlikely to put their few pilots on something that would be so easily destroyed.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 13, 2011 10:30 pm 
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I already brought up the distinction.

The Dra-C and Kampfer aren't MS where the pilot is told to go out and die as their mission, but that there's a very high chance that they COULD die on whatever mission they're sent to do, much like how the 08th MS Team were told how their redemption mission had only an 18% chance of survival, IIRC (even with their RX-79s). So while the survival rate was low, it was not impossible, so it would be a suicide mission, but NOT a kamikaze mission. There is still the chance of the pilot coming back, but just at a much lower rate than your "average" mission.

The Kampfer is a MS that, from what we've seen, is primarily meant to charge straight into the middle of enemy territory (or even start out right in the middle of it) and start blowing up its target(s). Charging in alone, whether from outside or inside enemy territory, would alert the Federation to its presence, which means it would have a limited time to locate its primary target(s) and destroy it/them before the Federation has a chance to really mobilize to counterattack.

So it either must destroy it/them quickly and get out of there, as hit-and-run attacks are meant to do, or it'll end up having to single-handedly try to fight off everything the Federation throws at it in its counterattack and, more than likely, end up overwhelmed, regardless of armor and whatnot (as said, 0080 wasn't really a very good depiction). Of course, this can also depend on location, but I doubt Zeon would waste the Kampfer on any place that didn't have something of vital importance to destroy.

And while the Dra-C is made from F2 parts, it's not necessarily the exact same build with extra parts slapped on, so armor placement can be different too. As said, 0083 had a Dra-C actually get destroyed simply by physically side-swiping Monsha's GM Custom (it did not use its beam saber at all), while his GM Custom only lost its left arm, but remained intact otherwise, thus showing that the Dra-C actually seems a bit frail overall compared to a normal MS.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:07 pm 
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I rechecked the screen and it is a full speed crash right into GM Custom's shield in full head-on block pose. GM Custom's arm is ripped into pieces too despited being fully protected by the strong shield and despite GM Custom's better armor material than most of OYW Zeon's MSs. And actually there are pretty few screens when MS crash into each other at high speed, so it doesn't really tell much which MS is really much frailer than others.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 2:33 pm 
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Considering the humanoid form, it's only natural that was the result with the GM Custom's arm ripping off given, with enough force, you can easily break bones or outright tear off a person's arm in a similar position. In this case, you also got the fact that MS, obviously, do not have pliable muscles or anything, but stiff armor and metal, so it can't really absorb the full force of energy from a full-charging, high speed MS slamming into it.

Well, not like anything can, but it couldn't do it as well, lol.

But considering the GM Custom was mostly intact otherwise and even able to continue fighting while the Dra-C ended up completely destroyed pretty much tells the story itself.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:21 pm 
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Hmm? that's what a big shield is for: protecting the MS from various attack. You expect Dra-C ramming its body head-on into the shield would give GM Custom's body that is protected behind that shield to become destroyed as much as Dra-C's body too? Its arm receives the shock of the ram and getting ripped into pieces even with the shield protection.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 3:37 pm 
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Maybe from conventional machine guns, vulcans, and maybe even a missile or 2, depending on the damage. A full on body slam from a high-speed MS? Not so much. lol

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