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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:21 pm 
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The problem is is that, while it may be fast, the Kampfer sacrifices pretty much any form of defensive measures to achieve it while things like the (Rick) Dom and Gelgoog series are still quite fast and maneuverable to achieve hit-and-run attacks, but still have very adequate armor and defensive capabilities (like the Gelgoog with its anti-beam coated shield). And just because it's fast, that doesn't mean the Kampfer is impossible to hit at any distance either, surprise or otherwise.

Free-falling MS and one-on-one MS combat is one thing; charging into a hail of gunfire from enemy battleships and MS (that actually react and such) would be an entirely different story.

Yes, the Kampfer isn't "useless", but as mentioned several times, the Rick Dom and Gelgoog series can pretty much perform the same tasks, but are most likely less costly to produce, have better defense and, in the case of the Gelgoog, is a general-purpose MS that can do a lot more than simply fast hit-and-run attacks. Add in the fact that, also as mentioned, the Kampfer is a much more specialized unit, thus parts would also be more costly to produce as well as creating an entirely separate production line to accommodate it.

Cost and practicality are the issues here really.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:44 pm 
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The question is how much armor Kampfer have and how much is sacrified. Is it really paper thin like being said here? It is owned by the arm gatling all right, but what else won't turn to swisscheese by that?

What we do know from lousy stat is that dry weight Kampfer is about the same as Rickdom, Rickdom II, and Gelgoog. The most noticable piece of armor missing on Kampfer is the slightly less overall covered shoulder armor and absence of skirt, perhaps leaving the hip and groin more exposed [but even then the thruster at the back of the hip seemed well covered in armor though, while in Rickdoms and Gelgoogs the butt thrusters are covered only on top by rear skirt, otherwise exposed]. Perhaps Kampfer sacrifies more internal propellant for weapons rather than lots of armor?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 5:15 pm 
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Dry weight is most likely taking all the propellent into account alongside weapons, ammo, and extra equipment. (As in nothing but the armor and internal parts and such as it was freshly rolled out.)

After all, it wouldn't make sense to make the Kampfer the way it was WITHOUT trying to milk extra operation time, but given the sheer number of thrusters and their strength, even that extra propellent wasn't enough to completely offset it, and with the weapons, there's not much space for extra propellent tanks either.


Again, the Kampfer isn't a bad MS regardless, but rather impractical like a bunch of Zeon's prototypes.

As said, you already got the Rick Dom and Gelgoog series able to perform the same duty as the Kampfer (as well as other types of missions effectively), but far more cost effective in being able to be mass produced easily, much more easily maintained (especially the Gelgoog, at least it would were it not for the war ending not long after production), and being more balanced out in several areas rather than "extreme" in one (which can add to cost and limit mission capabilities if they emphasize one aspect far above the others).

It's why you don't really see very mission-specific MS highly mass produced (despite the "mass production type" name. It's more like limited mass production) like the Guntank, Guncannon, etc as opposed to more general-purpose MS that are simply able to be used in that other area(s) than the regular type.

Like the GM Cannon can still perform similar duties and functions as the GM (Kai), but the cannon simply enabling it to fill in a support role to a better capacity than a GM (Kai). While the Guncannon Mass Production Type would definitely be better in terms of the support role with its heavier armor and 2 cannons, it's pretty much limited to just that role while the GM Cannon can slip out of its support role and move in more directly like a GM (Kai) albeit a little slower with the weight of the cannon, ammo, and little bit of extra armor on the feet/legs.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:18 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
As said, you already got the Rick Dom and Gelgoog series able to perform the same duty as the Kampfer (as well as other types of missions effectively), but far more cost effective in being able to be mass produced easily, much more easily maintained (especially the Gelgoog, at least it would were it not for the war ending not long after production), and being more balanced out in several areas rather than "extreme" in one (which can add to cost and limit mission capabilities if they emphasize one aspect far above the others).


Is there any evidence that Gelgoogs are easier to maintain, other than perhaps the availability of parts because it had a mass production run? Kampfer seems to be easily modified enough in the field that they used it for the control unit of Silver Lance. I would assume that it's already designed in the UMP standard, which should make its maintainance easier for non-MS specfic parts. Agility and speed over armoring is also the paradigm of MS design post-OYW, so I don't see it's specialization a hinderance to general performance. Paper armor is actually not bad when compared to Mk-II's unarmored legs. The only shortcoming would be the limited operation time, but that's the same for many high performance suits and it's not a big deal if compensated with SFS or external propellent tank.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:20 pm 
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You know, the Rick Dom really kind of sucks. Its only advantage is that they cranked out a crapton of them very quickly as a spinoff of the real, actually good at what it does Dom while waiting for a real Zaku replacement. Without the advantage of hovering it's a bit of a waist.

The Kampfer is the first Zeon MS designed as a "general use" hit and run attack mobile suit and its performance differential to a Rick Dom in that role is pretty comparable to that between a Gelgoog and Zaku to start with, plus the nature of its design means it's less short term compromised when forced into a fighter role. Just look at the model number. It's MS-18. The last standard model Zeon designated. It's pretty far advanced, the reason we don't see it put to post-war use like the MS-17 (which it shouldn't be forgotten was good enough to match Hizacks with trivial modifications) is that they threw out its development for a late war desperation attack and there's not really anything left around after.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 11:40 pm 
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Regarding the Gelgoog, here's a fragment from Mark's translation of Gundam Century:

Although the prototype was completed by late June of U.C. 0080, development of a beam rifle using Energy CAP technology was greatly delayed, so the Gelgoog was only deployed in combat at the very end of the war. But since it used no particularly new technologies aside from its large reactor, the Gelgoog was very easy to produce, and 740 units were produced in just two months. With its ease of production and its ability to use powerful beam weapons like those of Federation Forces mobile suits, the Gelgoog could have enabled Zeon to win the war had it been introduced one month earlier.

Leaving aside production numbers, which are always changing, this fragment does point out the Gelgoog's ease of production, although it doesn't make any direct comment regarding it's actual cost or maintenance cost, although I'm personally leaning towards the diea that the MS itself was not very expensive (with its new generator probably being the msot expensive componen), but rather the expensive parts were the beam weapons that Zeon had such a hard time developing. On the other hand, some videogames seem to suggest that innovative and heavier MS, such as Zimmad's Dom and Gogg, were more expensive than the Gelgoog.

Considering that most of Zeonic's designs, such as the Zaku, Gelgoog and Acguy, were not very expensive models, I'm also inclined to think that the Kampfer, another Zeonic design, was not a very expensive model as well, specially considering that it doesn't incorporate any new technologies either, has less armor material and mostly uses already existing weapons.

DeltasTaii wrote:
You know, the Rick Dom really kind of sucks. Its only advantage is that they cranked out a crapton of them very quickly as a spinoff of the real, actually good at what it does Dom while waiting for a real Zaku replacement. Without the advantage of hovering it's a bit of a waist.


Let's see the situation from a different point of view:

Early on during the war, MS like the Gouf and Efreet are developed when Zeon expected to run into Federation MS. As the situation gets worse for Zeon, but no Federation MS shows up, the Dom and Rick Dom seem like excellent options to defeat what the Federation has so far: non-MS units equipped with shell firing weapons that the Dom/Rick Dom can easily endure with it's heavy armor. If that had actually been the case, the concept could have probably worked.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:51 am 
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When I said dry weight I mean empty weight.

I have Never said that Kampfer should be the next mainstay Zeon MS. Still, since the fed does produce and attempt to produce quite a number of specialized MSs even though they have barely a few months to produce mass productive MSs as well, it should be fine for Zeon to plan for a small number of Kampfer for missions that require its high performance. Also as shown in Ecole Kampfer, like Dom and Gouf, can be equipped with other weapons for different purpose too.

As shown in the anime Guncannon can fight in close quarter if necessary, but it would be a stupid idea to do so generally. It is more stupid for the fed not to equipped Guncannons with any backup melee weapon, however. At least it is fixed in giving GM Cannon II a beam saber. It would be hard to imagine normal GM Cannon with its in-the-body cannon trying to fight in close quarter if a Zaku gets close though.

As for Rickdom it was discussed earlier and, apart from the fight against Amuro, there is only one or two footage of Rickdom being destroyed by GM and there is at least one footage showing Rickdom drives of attacking GM in the Movie III. Though its turnaround time is worse than Zaku II it has faster speed and has longer melee weapon [rod vs hawk]. Basically it is not that bad holding its own.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 7:49 pm 
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DeltasTaii wrote:
You know, the Rick Dom really kind of sucks.

Not really. It's actually quite good at what it was designed for -- it just wasn't designed for fighting mobile suits. Remember that the Dom was designed and built during the first half of the war, before Federation MS ever showed up. The Dom was intended as a heavy attack unit that would swarm in, unload bazooka rounds on its heavily armored but slow moving targets, and then zip away before anyone could organize a counterattack. (On Earth, these targets would be things like Big Trays and static fortified positions, while in space it would be warships.) It's got heavy armor to survive defensive fire, and good straight-line speed for getting in and out of the target's defensive zone quickly. Unfortunately for Zeon, none of these are very good for fighting agile targets with weapons that have excellent armor-piercing capabilities (ie, GMs with beam spray guns).

domtropen wrote:
Still, since the fed does produce and attempt to produce quite a number of specialized MSs even though they have barely a few months to produce mass productive MSs as well, it should be fine for Zeon to plan for a small number of Kampfer for missions that require its high performance.

The problem is that Zeon never has the sheer manufacturing power that the Earth Federation does. The Federation has production capacity to spare -- which is why you get slightly different mobile suits rolling out of every major factory they've got (Jaburo with vanilla GMs and Luna II with GM Kais, most notably) -- and were throwing everything they had into combat as soon as it rolled off the line (which is why you end up with a dozen different variants like the GM[E], GM[G], Gundam [G], etc). Zeon, on the other hand, really needed to focus on maximizing the output of their limited facilities. The amount of time and resources it would take them to build five Kampfers would almost certainly be better spent building ten Gelgoogs -- even if the Kampfer was a much higher-performing machine (which I'm not convinced it was).

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 10:28 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
And just because it's fast, that doesn't mean the Kampfer is impossible to hit at any distance either, surprise or otherwise.


But it does make it harder to hit, which pretty quickly becomes the focal point of MS design. The Mark II sure wasn't impossible to hit...

flamingtroll wrote:
Agility and speed over armoring is also the paradigm of MS design post-OYW, so I don't see it's specialization a hinderance to general performance. Paper armor is actually not bad when compared to Mk-II's unarmored legs. The only shortcoming would be the limited operation time, but that's the same for many high performance suits and it's not a big deal if compensated with SFS or external propellent tank.


As he notes, which seems to have been ignored.

DeltasTaii wrote:
The Kampfer is the first Zeon MS designed as a "general use" hit and run attack mobile suit and its performance differential to a Rick Dom in that role is pretty comparable to that between a Gelgoog and Zaku to start with, plus the nature of its design means it's less short term compromised when forced into a fighter role. Just look at the model number. It's MS-18. The last standard model Zeon designated. It's pretty far advanced, the reason we don't see it put to post-war use like the MS-17 (which it shouldn't be forgotten was good enough to match Hizacks with trivial modifications) is that they threw out its development for a late war desperation attack and there's not really anything left around after.


This as well. The Rick Dom can take some hits from weaponry the Federation isn't actually employing en masse at the point we're talking anymore. The Kampfer is actively designed having seen that. Armour doesn't matter on the base suit except on the chance the GMs you're facing are using machineguns. The Kampfer can assuredly hold a shield just the same as any other Zeon MS can, the same as it can choose to use as many of the weapons it came equipped with in 0080 or not (or others Zeon employed that it DIDN'T use - including beam weapons).

So why does having a lack of armour make it any kind of inferior machine, again? It's operating under a principle that is not-much-later adopted by virtually everyone, for decades to come.

Just look at the thing, honestly. It's got huge yellow maneuvering thrusters larger than any other machine of the time's vernier, which also have an incredible range of motion - the shoulder ones, anyways. Everything about the design screams agility and speed.

How can it NOT be higher performing than the contemporary Gelgoog? The Jager might have something on it, but I'd easily wager the Kampfer is more maneuverable in a base configuration (I'd assume the stats would be incorporating all of the Kampfer's loadout, which must have significant mass, therefore as it drops more/equips less it should be much lighter and faster). The machine is wholly GEARED to it, while the Gelgoog itself is playing the middle of the road by comparison. You're telling me they're producing a machine to do hit and runs and it can't do it faster than machines produced before it?

That would be crazy and nonsensical even by Gundam standards.

As at least one person has noted this is a machine demanding a lot out of the pilot. Certainly lesser pilots cannot make use of maneuverability over armour - they couldn't even make proper use of the Gelgoog, anyways. But that's entirely irrelevant, because this thread is not about the realistic employment of the Kampfer being produced for end-war Zeon but the sheer capabilities of the Mobile Suit... And everything said, as well as shown, about it indicates that it is incredibly fast and incredibly agile. When the enemy's weapons disregard armour, armour becomes disregarded until you're fielding enough of it to counter them - which the Gelgoog and Rick Dom certainly were not, Gelgoog's shield aside.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:05 am 
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Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
The problem is that Zeon never has the sheer manufacturing power that the Earth Federation does. The Federation has production capacity to spare -- which is why you get slightly different mobile suits rolling out of every major factory they've got (Jaburo with vanilla GMs and Luna II with GM Kais, most notably) -- and were throwing everything they had into combat as soon as it rolled off the line (which is why you end up with a dozen different variants like the GM[E], GM[G], Gundam [G], etc). Zeon, on the other hand, really needed to focus on maximizing the output of their limited facilities. The amount of time and resources it would take them to build five Kampfers would almost certainly be better spent building ten Gelgoogs -- even if the Kampfer was a much higher-performing machine (which I'm not convinced it was).


Do not forget that Zeon can pump out 200 Rickdoms a month despite having many projects going on. The much more pressing problem for Zeon is finding quality pilots. According to Mark's data evolution the main reason Rickdom doesn't do as well as Dom is that, apart from its armor is no good against beam weapon, is that pilots' quality declined quite a lot and cannot use the MS to its full potential. That's despite Rickdom having much more propellant than Zaku II that helps error in piloting. In the anime iself it is shown that many Zeon MSs at A Baow Ku battle are used by these new rookies that do pretty badly despite some having Gelgoog at their arsenal.

Wondering does the united maintainance plan includes making the cockpit and MS control system similar to each other as well. If so that should really help the new and rather inept Zeon pilot of the late OYW a lot.

Another point is that most of the specialized MS the fed pump out in that 1-2 months are based mainly on GM. That is similar to Zeon's earlier effort in the earlier part of the OYW pumping out Zaku II variants and Goufs that are based on Zakus. The improvement can only go so far on a single model though [eg. MS-06R2 gets high performance but not much room for additional propellant needed], and eventually newer design model is needed.

About armor: later OYW MS machineguns on both the fed and Zeon's sides seem highly capable of making holes on MS with a direct hit, even the thick one like Dom. Still having some armor means the MS can survive indirect or glancing shots better than without armor.

Wondering is Zeonic's Kampfer is also the attempt by Zeonic to have new MS with its own in-house development without Zimmad's meddling? Gelgoog does have Zimmad's involvement in its thrusters.


Last edited by domtropen on Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 12:49 am 
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domtropen wrote:
Wondering does the united maintainance plan includes making the cockpit and MS control system similar to each other as well. If so that should really help the new and rather inept Zeon pilot of the late OYW a lot.


Yes, the cockpit design of the MS of the UMP should be very similiar so a pilot can easily switch to a more advanced MS after gaining more experience. What we don't know is if this new cockpit design is similiar to those of non-UMP MS.

domtropen wrote:
Wondering is Zeonic's Kampfer is also the attempt by Zeonic to have new MS with its own in-house development without Zimmad's meddling? Gelgoog does have Zimmad's involvement in its thrusters.


I don't thinkt hat Zimmad was involved at all in the Gelgoog's development, after all they were producing their own design to compete against the Gelgoog, the Gyan. The one design that could be the result of the cooperation between Zeonic and Zimmad is the Galbaldy Alpha.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 4:32 am 
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IIRC Zimmad is involved in Zaku himo [MS-06R1A] thrusters and also Gelgoog thrusters. May anyone check on this?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:16 pm 
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Yep, the MG kit manuals say that the Gelgoog's thrusters use Zimmad technology, and the MSV Collection File says that the Zaku R-1A replaced the original thrusters with superior Zimmad ones. From the MSV Collection File profile of the R-1A:

Quote:
This machine was an improved model of the R-1 type, in which the auxiliary propellant tanks in the legs were turned into cartridges, making it easy to resupply them in space and aboard ships. The thrusters produced in-house, which frequently broke down, were also replaced by ones of Zimmad manufacture. Within the Zeonic company, which produced the Zaku, there was great opposition to using a rival company's products. But the decision was made to adopt them at the strong insistence of Commander Elliot Lem, who was in charge of the development.


And from the MG Char's Gelgoog kit manual:

Quote:
In the middle stages of the One Year War, the Principality forces proposed several plans for a next-generation space combat mobile suit. These were a new model of Zaku, the R-2 type; a space combat version of the Dom, the R09 (09R) type; and the newly designed MS-11. But then, due to the appearance of the Federation Forces' RX types, a new item was added to the military's requirements, namely "a mobile suit capable of carrying beam weapons." The MS-11 project slid to the MS-14, becoming a competitor to the MS-15 Gyan, which was intended mainly for melee and close combat. Although the MS-15 was highly valued for its maneuverability, there were problems with its versatility, its space combat capabilities, and its generator's inability to drive any beam weapons other than a beam saber. Thus, the development of the MS-14 proceeded on the assumption that it would be mass produced as the next-generation main mobile suit. (It could almost be said that by this point the competition between makers was mostly a formality, and even the contest between the MS-14 and MS-15 was nothing more than a pure ceremony.)

The machines which served as development bases for the MS-14 included the MS-11, the MS-06R-2, and the final type of the 06R series, the MS-06R-3. The Gelgoog was created by gathering the engineers who had participated in the development of these machines, under the direct command of the Principality officials responsible for mobile suit development. Although the basic avionics of the MS-14 were made by Zeonic, Zimmad technology was adopted in its thrusters. The mobile suit departments of mobile armor developers such as MIP were also brought in during the development of the beam rifle, and served as OEM producers for the machines of this series. Each maker also ended up performing its own licensed production, depending on the supply requirements for various parts. The production itself was meant to be performed block by block, so that each part of the Gelgoog could be manufactured independently. For this reason, parts such as heads and legs could be supplied ahead of time, making it possible to mass produce the machine in a short period.


There's also some interesting stuff in the MG kit manual about the Gelgoog's thrusters...

Quote:
The Gelgoog could be called a direct descendant of the 06R series, and as with the R type, the entire leg could be considered a huge vernier thruster unit. It was also designed for even higher performance, based on operating data from the 06R-2 type.

At first, the plan was that the vernier thruster units installed in the Gelgoog's legs would use the same Zeonic-manufactured parts developed for the MS-11. But in fact, improvements had been made to these units between their use in the 06R-2 type and the completion of the new machine. In order to increase the total thrust, it was decided that the skirt verniers would incorporate knowhow from the Zimmad-manufactured verniers of the 09R series, and so these were once again jointly developed.

In this case as well, the Gelgoog could effectively be called a mobile suit created by mobilizing all the mobile suit development knowhow of the Principality forces.


All of which is terribly interesting. The thing I'm wondering is, why does everyone seem to assume the development of the Kaempfer had anything to do with Zeonic?

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:22 pm 
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In ways, all that could also explain why the Gelgoog is, overall, the better MS over the Kampfer; basically combining the best aspects of some of the best MS (and MA) from all ALL THREE development companies into 1 MS.

And probably because...wiki... ( :roll: ) states that the Kampfer was manufactured by Zeonic Company.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 1:39 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
And probably because...wiki... ( :roll: ) states that the Kampfer was manufactured by Zeonic Company.

Oh well, gosh, now there's a reliable source. :-)

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:11 pm 
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Thanks a lot for Gelgoog info. Wondering does Gyan have butt and leg thrusters?

I got the Kampfer producer info from mahq.

So Kampfer may not be made by Zeonic?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 5:47 pm 
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domtropen wrote:
Thanks a lot for Gelgoog info. Wondering does Gyan have butt and leg thrusters?

Not as far as I know, which is kind of odd given that it was created by the same developer as the Dom. If anything, the Gyan seems more like an outgrowth of the doomed Zudah lineage, which might explain why its early model number was MS-X10.

Quote:
I got the Kampfer producer info from mahq.

So Kampfer may not be made by Zeonic?

I don't think I've ever seen that claim in any of the Japanese sources. The English-language sources that say this may simply have made it up.

It's possible that the Kaempfer was created by Mobile Assault Force engineers at Granada, with no involvement from the usual development companies, or that it was jointly developed by multiple companies. It also occurs to me that the "E" suffix in its model number, which the MG kit manual claims is for "Einhauen" ("assault"), is also used by the Z'Gok E (where it stands for "Experiment"). So perhaps MIP, the developer of the Z'Gok, might be a long-shot candidate?

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:33 pm 
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Maybe the Kampfer is also a descendant of the Zudah. Both are fast, lightly armored MS. Also, the Zudah too had hardpoints on its legs for attaching different weapons.

However we also need to consider some other aspects, such as the Titanium/Ceramic composite armor which Zeon seemed to exclusively use for the UMP units and the MSM-03C and MSM-07E (which I'm unsure if they are also UMP).

Leaving aside the two amphibious MS for a moment, maybe the Kampfer could also be the result of the cooperation of Zeon's MS manufacturers to create a new MS original MS design as the final product of the UMP.

I do should admit that I also like the idea of MIP being the manufacturer of the Kampfer though.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 7:04 am 
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Perhaps Kampfer [pre-configuration] is MIP take on next generation MS like Zimmad's Galbaldy after they have their hands on Gelgoog? IS YMS-18 or MS-18A [Akira's Kampfer and the Kampfer on the left page of original 1/144 Kampfer manual] a hit and run MS or more general purpose?

Is Kampfer capable of using projectile beam weapon? I am not sure whether or not Akira's Kampfer gun is beam or projectile.

Off topic but IIRC Gyan would have some addon/swap for ground use. Maybe butt/leg/hovering foot thrusters would be added for ground use? These thrusters may not be really needed in space.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:07 pm 
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The Kampfer maybe could use one, but considering how much reactor power is probably being put towards the thrusters, it's pretty much why it's usually armed with conventional weapons and only beam sabers as beam weapons, besides simply being cheaper and easier to maintain.

As for the Gyan, it seems pretty doubtful given Zeon's turn towards emphasizing MS use for space and already rejecting it in favor of the Gelgoog, which wouldn't need any such serious adjustment for either environment.

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