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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 6:00 pm 
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Lackey GM Pilot

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thank yall for yall opinions do yall think neo-zeon looked and based there suits of this design the kampfer looks like zeon- future designs like the zulus,the dogas,also a lil bit of the sazabi thats why i said ahead of its time because it just favors neo-zeon suits.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Wed Aug 03, 2011 8:53 pm 
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I wouldn't think so. The Kampfer isn't that well known, it wasn't built in major numbers, and I'd honestly question if even Zeon engineers at the time viewed it as a success (As mentioned, it's highly mission specific, just like most of Zeons other failed units during the OYW), which all stacks against them basing their later suits on the MS-18. I'd chalk the later Neo Zeon designs just as evolutions of other suits, namely the Gelgoog line, and just the general development of mobile suits during those years, rather than them looking back at the Kampfer...

Of course, it's all just trying to explain an out-of-universe thing, since 0080 came out shortly after CCA, and the Kampfer, Geara Doga, and Sazabi were all designed by Yutaka Izubuchi, so it's not surprising they look similar, even though the Kampfer's history ought to be unrelated to the latter two designs. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:52 pm 
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The best way to related it is to the late world war II axis projects it's modeled on. Zeon lacked an central directive for MS/MA development. The various Zabi's each had different groups competing for the status of war winning “miracle weapon” and Zeon squandered it's limited resources on building lots of prototype units instead of a dedicated run of a single model like the
Earth Federation did. The MS-18 was one of the many prototypes that was sent out just because it had the features that were required for the mission it was given. it's status in later works fits with what it was an limited run prototype that has excellent performance in combat but since it was not produced as an main stay model there is a distinct lack of parts to fix it.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 3:57 pm 
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Yeah, it wasn't until the United Maintenance Plan did Zeon, at least with MS, had started to get their act together, but by then, it was already too late.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:05 pm 
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The only "descendant" of the Kampfer I've seen is a model kit of the Prototype Marasai, but obviously that's fan-made, and I presume the Rosette renders it non-canon.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:28 pm 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
The only "descendant" of the Kampfer I've seen is a model kit of the Prototype Marasai, but obviously that's fan-made, and I presume the Rosette renders it non-canon.


Well, Izubuchi did seem to take some design cues from Marasai for Kampfer, and it i think it did come before the actual MS-08 Efreet design.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:59 am 
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AmuroNT1 wrote:
The only "descendant" of the Kampfer I've seen is a model kit of the Prototype Marasai, but obviously that's fan-made, and I presume the Rosette renders it non-canon.


There is Silverlance from Gundam Legacy, but that thing is really just a large rocket with Kampfer attached as control unit.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:59 pm 
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I think you're all jobbing the Kampfer pretty hard. It's hard to say just how good of a pilot Akira is, but it's still a monster of a One Year War mobile suit.

There's basically two major reference points you want to look at here-the YMS-18 in Ecole Du Ciel, and the OYW MS-primarily of the Gelgoog variety-in ZZ. Relative to that latter point, the Kampfer is probably one of the two highest performance conventional MS Zeon produced. In ZZ, a 14A model Gelgoog is still a threat and while it's a less versatile machine there's not really any doubt the Kampfer models we've seen are more powerful than a standard Gelgoog.

In Ecole Du Ciel Akira has been using the Prototype Kampfer all the way from 0084 through to 0087. At the point of Char's Dakar speech about the only time it's finally seemed to start holding him back is against a Gaplant and alongside Le Cygne. It's also been shown using a rather large beam cannon for a while now. There's no doubt that Akira is a rather exceptional newtype pilot able to do things with it that no average grunt could hope to (and probably overcome the disadvantage of a standard cockpit), but the fact remains the potential of the machine seems rather high. It's not on the level of the prototypes of the time but I think against most mass production models from the Gryps Conflict it holds up pretty well. Its design theory, with very high maneuverability and crap armour was ahead of its time and it was just a pure powerhouse when rolled out.

In short, it's a beast, but it's not the kind of thing poorly trained Zeon rookies can handle.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 3:30 pm 
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At least on Earth the OYW era vanilla Gelgoog and Dom with some mod [Dowadge] with decent pilots seem to be able to hold their own against Gryps era MSs, as discussed in earlier time in ZZ discussion. What Gryps era MSs have in common that is generally better than late OYW era MSs is lighter base weight and more propellent.

I wonder what is screwing up Zeon's MS plans is that they underestimate what the fed comes up with - high performance light melee/general purpose MS with small handheld beam weapons as standard equipment. Most MSs Zeon deploy or develop before Gundam show up is not really planned against MS of Gundam caliber... Even Gouf that is planned for upcoming melee ends up with heat sword and rod/whip. With 1st ever MS vs MS combat in late September or October [I can't remembered] it is pretty amazing for Zeon to upgrade its MS-11 development to Gelgoog in time...


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 5:00 pm 
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Most likely because of effective guerrilla tactics involving more ambush attacks rather than in the open. Good enough tactics and piloting skill can easily offset the differences of technology, provided it's not too big a gap.

In terms of the Act Zaku to the Gelgoog, Zeon would've had standard beam rifles sooner had the people involved not defected to the Federation, allowing them to field it first while Zeon's own research was severely slowed at the same time, forcing them to use substitutes when allowed (like built-in mega particle guns with makeshift coolants like with amphibious MS and water).

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:49 pm 
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I've never been particularly impressed with the Kampfer -- mostly because its one fight scene that we get to see makes it look less like "the Kampfer is badass" and more like "the Feddies the Kampfer fought were drunk in their cockpits". If my memory serves (and it has been quite a while since I've watched 0080), the Federation MS that the Kampfer destroys barely maneuver, and the only time we actually see one firing a weapon is a long-range shot from a Guncannon that was still descending from high altitude. When it actually faces any resistance, it crumples like a paper tiger. (Admittedly, that was largely because its pilot decided to stand around like an idiot instead of attacking, but the point stands.)

The Kampfer feels, to me, like a solution in search of a problem. What's the Kampfer for? High-speed hit-and-run attacks? The Dom can handle that -- that's what it was designed for (in the form of making bazooka-armed attack runs on ships). It does have an impressive array of armaments, but the majority of those are hand-carried; there's no reason why Zeon couldn't have developed, say, chain-mines for the Zaku or Gelgoog instead of the Kampfer. There doesn't really seem to be a point to the Kampfer's existence -- other than model kit fodder, anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 9:30 pm 
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That's pretty much what I meant earlier; the fight seemed to solely favor the Kampfer just to make it look cooler and only making the Alex, being the Gundam, looked better by utterly owning everything it tried all the way up to the chain mine. Also, is a pump action shotgun even needed besides just for another cool factor?

The Gray Phantom's MS hardly made any movements whatsoever (besides visors over the face, and cannons deploying forward) and left themselves wide open with no form of formation or anything of the sort in order to counter the Kampfer, allowing the Kampfer to easily pick them off one by one without a fight, much less a dodge (even taking down each MS with 1 shot a piece, IIRC, even the shotgun, from a distance, taking out one of the Guncannons; a MS meant to be more heavily armored to be able to take such punishment).

As said, if it had been an actual fight, the results more than likely would've varied a lot more.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sat Aug 06, 2011 10:19 pm 
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The Kampfer may have been an attempt by zeonic to build an MS that could perform the same missions as the rick dom. it's selection for this mission was due to the fact that it could be easily broken up and rebuilt on site. the real world reason for it's appearance and functionality is due to the fact it is based on the ingram from palaboir witch was desgined by the same person. By the looks of it zeon was attempting to create an prototype that emulated the V project frame while the gelgoog was an modernized Zaku style ms.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 4:31 pm 
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Kampfer has almost twice as much thrust as and can run about twice as fast as Rickdom II. Does anybody remember how Kampfer manuever in the footage? Is it more manueverable than Rickdoms? Its 180 degree turnaround time is much faster than Rickdoms [and even faster than Gelgoog Jaeger]. Wondering where the armor is thinner though since Kampfer dry weight is about as heavy as Rickdom, Rickdom II, and Gelgoog.

I wonder what regular size MS at the time would not become swiss cheese after taking a full course of that arm gatling? :mrgreen:

Btw IIRC the Act Zaku developed at Pezun takes the MS-11 number after the original MS-11 project was changed to Gelgoog development?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:08 pm 
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As said, you can only take numbers in any profile with a grain of salt.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:43 pm 
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Well, if you want some unofficial stuff. Hobby Japan 01/2011 does feature YAMS-130B Greifer which is winner model from 13th Ora Zaku Grand Prize, which is more or less result of SinanjuXKampfer's shipping.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 3:04 am 
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A grain of salt all right, but both running speed and thrust are shown to be about nearly double of Rickdom II, so I guess it is intentional for Kampfer to be quite a lot faster than Rickdom II. It is also supposed to be MS with one of the fastest 180 degree turnaround time in OYW. If Prototype Kampfer is as fast no wonder Akira the newtype uses Prototype Kampfer so well.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 4:50 am 
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It should really be outclassed. Its a machine that thrives off its immense thruster array. But that means wasting propellent quickly. Its premier in 0080 was pretty bad. Its only feat was taking out freefalling targets that didn't react to anything, even the destruction of allied suits (crazy, I know). And in the time it began its charge against the Gundam, the Gundam was able to quickly dispense its weapon and shred the kampfer to pieces. In direct combat I doubt the kampfer would stand any more of a chance than any other MS piloted by fodder.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:58 am 
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domtropen wrote:
A grain of salt all right, but both running speed and thrust are shown to be about nearly double of Rickdom II, so I guess it is intentional for Kampfer to be quite a lot faster than Rickdom II. It is also supposed to be MS with one of the fastest 180 degree turnaround time in OYW.


The Rick Dom II is a space use MS that isn't intended to operate under gravity, which is probably why it's ground speed is what it is. It's listed running speed is faster than the basic MS-09, but that machine is intended to hover around (And the Dom's hover speed is 240 km/h), not run.

But, once again, that kind of stat comparison is completely useless, since the Dom is from one series, the Rick Dom II and Kampfer another, and all the stats are different, they're always wacky and most of them (Such as that 180 degree turn time) are useless anyway. All that matters is the Kampfer is probably faster/more manuverable than the Rick Dom II, but by exactly how much doesn't matter (And is impossible to determine, since we barely see the Rick Dom II in 0080, and I wouldn't try and use the ones we see in 0083 as an example for a laundry list of reasons).

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2011 1:03 pm 
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Running speed is important in this case since it is running speed - not thruster-assisted rush/flight/jump/hop, indicating that Kampfer is still fast even without thrusters. Still all performance stats [accurate or not] points that Kampfer is supposed to be quite a bit to a lot faster than various Rickdom and Gelgoog types, even without thrusters. And that means Kampfer is not useless Zeonic junk; it is one of the fastest MS in Zeon's arsenal that can dish out fast and big attack quickly. Perhaps it should not be deployed alone: it would be like a spearhead hitting fast and hard, then runaway and have other MSs like Rickdom follow up the attack. That won't work when operating alone though.

About Alex's arm gatling: do not forget that it is intended to be surprise hidden weapon. Generally for close combat GM/Gundam types would resort to head vulcans and beam saber. In 0080 Kampfer pilot would anticipate such moves but got popup gatling instead.


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