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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 4:01 pm 
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Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
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Shield durability---example from Gundam shield:
beam rifle - punch through
machinegun - nothing
heat hawk - cut through slightly
heat sword - nicely cut in half
bazooka - pieces missing

GM shield:
machinegun - not going through but the hand cannot withstand all the shock and lost the grip [igloo]
bodyslam - not going through but the whole arm is gone lol.

Should it be said that Gm Custom's arm is quite fragile?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Sun Aug 14, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Master of Mecha

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As far as the functional purpose of the Kaempfer, the standard explanation is pretty much just what I already quoted from the MG kit manual. The highlights once again:

Quote:
This was a specialized machine with the ability to singlehandedly engage in anti-mobile suit combat and penetrate enemy defensive lines. (The term "kampf" includes the meaning of melee combat.) It could make hit-and-run attacks using the high-output vernier thrusters installed throughout its body, overcoming the enemy's bases and main forces. [...] it could also be said that virtually no consideration was given to "returning" after the assault.


The Kaempfer is normally described as an "assault mobile suit," a term used to describe a variety of other machines. But it's worth noting that there actually two terms used in Gundam, both of which are translated as "assault" but which have slightly different shades of meaning. Specifically:

強襲 (kyoushuu) - more like a surprise attack or raid.
突撃 (totsugeki) - more like a frontal charge against the enemy lines.


The term 強襲 is the one that's always used to describe the Kaempfer and the Gerbera Tetra. It also features in the classification of the White Base (強襲揚陸艦, or "assault landing ship") and the name of the RTX-440 Assault Guntank (陸戦強襲型ガンタンク). According to the MG kit manuals, the Gundam GP02A was originally planned as an "assault" or "raiding" mobile suit in this same category.

One thing that most of these "raiding" machines have in common is good close combat weaponry. They all have vulcans for close defense, and the Gerbera Tetra also has forearm machine guns of the same type that defeated its predecessor. The Kaempfer, GP02A, and Gerbera Tetra even use similar hip-mounted beam saber racks, and the attack methods of the Kaempfer and GP02A are fairly similar - deal a devastating blow to the enemy forces with long-range weapons, then charge in and finish off the survivors in melee combat. Some writeups on the Gerbera Tetra, such as the one on the official Gundam 0083 web site, suggest that it was meant to work the same way:

Quote:
Because it inherited the concept of being "the strongest in anti-mobile suit combat," it had superb melee and hand-to-hand combat capabilities, and it was also equipped with a sturm booster to make it easier to transition into melee combat.


The aforementioned "Gundam The Movies" writeup makes much of the Kaempfer's emphasis on close combat, and claims that this the real reason for its limited use of beam weapons - their damage level is harder to control in close combat, and they're more likely to provoke generator explosions that would destroy the Kaempfer as well.


What about the second kind of "assault"? The term 突撃 seems to be used more for a mass frontal assault on enemy lines. This is used to describe the Public and Jicco assault boats from the One Year War, MS-X machines such as the Gassha and Pezun Dowadge, the Federation's GM Striker and GM Cannon Space Assault Type, and of course the Dra-C. The description of the Pezun Dowadge from the Zeonography box, however, makes this category sound fairly similar:

Quote:
It is meant to be an "assault type" which, in addition to the functions of the Dom, can use its heavy armor for anti-MS melee combat, and even takes hand-to-hand combat into account.



Finally, the standard description of the Zssa encompasses both terms. The profile from the Gundam Collection mini-figure series elaborates on this at some length:

Quote:
A support mobile suit developed for joint operations with the AMX-101 Galluss-J. Its main roles are raiding attacks and rear support, and it could be considered a successor to the concept of the MS-13 Gassha from the MS-X category developed by the former Principality forces. When equipped with a booster, it can also fly in the atmosphere, and in functional terms it could be called a mobile suit version of the space assault boats of the One Year War era. Naturally, it can also function as a mobile suit, and can even handle close combat with its beam sabers. Compared to the average machine of its time, it would be categorized as a small machine. But when the boosters and missile pods are removed to preserve its maneuverability, it could be described as having rather excellent hand-to-hand combat capabilities.


So this is a pretty similar mission profile to the Public, the Kaempfer, the Gundam GP02A, and the Gerbera Tetra: Approach at high speed, unload a lot of heavy firepower at the main body of the enemy, and then ditch all the dead weight and mop up the survivors in close combat. It's a fairly complicated mission profile compared to normal mobile suit types, and judging from the animation these machines do tend to have a low survival rate, since we've never really seen them return in one piece. On the other hand, they do seem to be pretty effective!

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:12 pm 
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I think that when they designed it they may have hoped that a group of normal ms would show up to back it up after it flattened the forces on it's way in. but the one time that we see one in action in use by zeon it's alone and it's operatior gets shocked when a gundam class ms survives an explosion on top of it and get's shreaded by the vulcan system. it's concepts do end up in post war ms but on in the same scale as the zaku style of ms and the RGM series.

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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Master of Mecha

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JEFFPIATT wrote:
I think that when they designed it they may have hoped that a group of normal ms would show up to back it up after it flattened the forces on it's way in.

That seems reasonable enough - certainly, one mobile suit can't hold territory all by itself. In the case of Gundam 0080, of course, there are no reinforcements on the way, and as the MG kit manuals points out there's no provision for the Kaempfer returning from its mission. Best case scenario is probably that, if Misha had successfully destroyed the Alex, he'd bail out and self-destruct his mobile suit before Federation reinforcements showed up.

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 6:42 pm 
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Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
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When I rewatched 0080 it seems that the Cyclops team plant time bomb at the factory to blow a hole through colony's wall [they mentioned that the bomb should be strong enough to make hole for MS to go through during the planning part]. Maybe that would be the escape route for both Kampfer and Alex if they can steal Alex successfully. However they fail to steal Alex and fail to plant explosive to destroy it, so Kampfer is like 3rd backup plan for moving in to try destroying Alex itself. It would be possible for Kampfer to escort the stolen Alex if the theft is successful.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Even if they stole Alex, what do they do once they make it outside the colony? Try to fly in a MS all the way from Side 6 to the moon or Side 3? By that time the Kaempfer could also be assumed to be low on propellent, given that it burns through it quickly as-is. Were I in their shoes, I'd bail out inside the colony and send the Kaempfer on automatic pilot outside the colony.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:11 am 
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Pilot's Doomed Girlfriend
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The part I wrote about making a hole that should be big enough for MS to go through and the stealing word were from the anime itself. A plothole perhaps? Or some of the Musais would still hang out near Side 6?


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 3:58 am 
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It's kind of unclear what the actual plan was. We're told that the Cyclops team are going to try and capture the Alex, or destroy it if they can't capture it. They also say that, regardless of the outcome of the operation, they'll all split up after they escape the Federation base.

If the Cyclops team were able to capture the Alex, presumably they'd want to get it out of the colony and back to Zeon territory as quickly as possible. So perhaps the "hole big enough for a mobile suit" was intended for the stolen Alex? Or perhaps they just figured it would be useful to have an extra escape route, whatever they ended up using it for. It's hard to imagine that the Kaempfer would be able to fly back to Granada on its own after all that fighting, but maybe it's better than nothing.

-- Mark


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 16, 2011 1:00 pm 
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I would think the hole is for MS only since, unless they prepare normal suits or some airtight vehicles somewhere close by so they can use quickly, there is no way they can escape via that hole out to space.

I do not think either Kampfer or Alex would be able to travel far. It would be more likely that there are some Zeon vehicles or ships laying not far out of Side 6's border that the team can reach for pickup.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:12 am 
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Newtype Emo Guy
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toysdream wrote:
JEFFPIATT wrote:
I think that when they designed it they may have hoped that a group of normal ms would show up to back it up after it flattened the forces on it's way in.

That seems reasonable enough - certainly, one mobile suit can't hold territory all by itself. In the case of Gundam 0080, of course, there are no reinforcements on the way

If only Bernie had remembered the Zaku II he abandoned sooner. The entire plan may have turned out differently.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:30 pm 
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zerogradius wrote:
toysdream wrote:
JEFFPIATT wrote:
I think that when they designed it they may have hoped that a group of normal ms would show up to back it up after it flattened the forces on it's way in.

That seems reasonable enough - certainly, one mobile suit can't hold territory all by itself. In the case of Gundam 0080, of course, there are no reinforcements on the way

If only Bernie had remembered the Zaku II he abandoned sooner. The entire plan may have turned out differently.


Well, it wouldn't be about forgetting, but the fact that it would take time to get repaired and workable.

Remember that all he had access to at the end, even after fixing it up, was the Heat Hawk. When you consider what the Kampfer was doing and how many enemy MS showed up in response, I doubt his little diversionary tactics would work so well with so many Sets of eyes looking around as opposed to 1 single opponent, thus having only a Heat Hawk wouldn't make for very efficient backup and he'd still be easy pickings in the long run.

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"I'll show you that a superior mobile suit has its limits when it goes up against a superior pilot!" - Char Aznable, The Red Comet


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:29 pm 
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Newtype Emo Guy
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Well, there would have been 4 hands working on the Zaku instead of Bernie and the kid, so it would have been repaired a lot quicker. Also, if I remember correctly, the Zeon had a contact within the colony. They could have gotten a weapon from him.

I'm not saying that they would have taken down the Gundam, but it certainly would have changed the dynamics of the battle.


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 Post subject: Re: Kampfer
 Post Posted: Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:47 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
[Remember that all he had access to at the end, even after fixing it up, was the Heat Hawk. When you consider what the Kampfer was doing and how many enemy MS showed up in response, I doubt his little diversionary tactics would work so well with so many Sets of eyes looking around as opposed to 1 single opponent, thus having only a Heat Hawk wouldn't make for very efficient backup and he'd still be easy pickings in the long run.


Remember that the Heat Hawk along with the grenades found with it were among the weapons the Cyclops Team had prepared as backup weapons for the Kampfer, with another such weapon being the chain mine used on the Alex. These trucks were the same originally used to transport the components fo the Kampfer from the spaceport to the factory where the assembled it. There were a total of four trucks, which means that there were two trucks whose contents remain unknown, although Bernie's dissapointment at finding only the Heat Hawk and grenades instead of a rifle might indicate that one of the other trucks did have a rifle or some sort of firearm.


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