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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:01 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Does anyone have pics or any sort of info on the weapons used by infantry in the OYW? Post-OYW would also be fine. Even things from that Operation Troy game would be nice.

So far I have pics of the following;

EF:
Colt M71A1 Pistol (9x19mm)
C-357 AutoMag Pistol (.357) (I don't even know if this is EF issue or not)
Colt M72A1 Assault Rifle (4.85mm)
M-229 Light Machine Gun (5.56mm)
M60 Heavy Machine Gun (7.62x51mm NATO)
Regina Anti-MS Launcher (155mm?)

Zeon:
Walter P08-M Pistol (9x19mm)
Walter P-62M (9x19mm)
MP-71 Sub Machine Gun (9x19mm)
MG74 GPMG (7.62x51mm?)

I know the Colt M71A1 and Walter P08-M are the service handguns, although the P-62M is still around (presumably for officers?). The MP-71 from IGLOO is their SMG, and the MG74 is probably a GPMG. Whereas the M60 is a direct port, and the M-299 is just a renamed/improved M249 LMG. And the standard rifle of the EF is the Colt M72A1.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:06 pm 
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http://lstmarbles.files.wordpress.com/2 ... atized.jpg

This picture shows the Federation rifle, it is the bullpup one

It shows up in Gundam 8th MS TEAM and Gundam 0080

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:36 pm 
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That's the M72A1 assault rifle from the list. It also showed up in 0083, and in a host of pictures, games, and other assorted places.

Evidently, by the time of Zeta (0087), it was replaced by a traditional assault rifle design, which is shown quite a bit in that show (And ZZ), but has no known designation like most other post-OYW-era weapons we see.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:50 pm 
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There are some gun specs in one of the Entertainment Bibles that I can scan in for you if you'd like. They pretty much showcase a smattering of weapons from the OYW up to the Cosmo Babylonia era...


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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:54 pm 
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Post-OYW war stuff?! :o Sure, let's see 'em! :mrgreen:

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:35 pm 
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Here's a few I scanned a few years ago from Gundam Fact File.

Guns 1
Guns 2

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 7:57 pm 
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http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page133.jpg
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page134.jpg
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page135.jpg
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page137.jpg
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page138.jpg
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page139.jpg

I translated the names so you know what they are.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:15 pm 
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Deacon Blues wrote:
http://zeonic-republic.net/lineart/page138.jpg

Looks like Bernie and Heero share the same preference in sidearms.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:34 pm 
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Still not Wing's most infamous case of taking a weapon from UC. :P

Anyway, thanks for the scans, Deacon. I know a bunch of those guns have model numbers (And maybe names) that are listed in other sources, like Mark's scans and others I know are floating around, but did the one you scanned those from include any of that, or just the generic-y names you translated them with?

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:52 pm 
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Just the generic names that are on the pages :(

There's a "small arms collection" in the third MSV book that was put out a couple years ago, but it's nothing major. It does have model numbers though.


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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:02 pm 
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Are these two scans from that?

On a related note, I found this thread on this subject from just over a year ago, which has more scans of stuff, including things like the Regina rocket launcher and the M-299 machine gun.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:01 am 
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So they never bother to invent new firearms in the future,relying on tried and true that has been around since before space immigration? :|

I guess everything goes into Mobile Weapons and stuff.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Propellant wrote:
So they never bother to invent new firearms in the future,relying on tried and true that has been around since before space immigration? :|

I guess everything goes into Mobile Weapons and stuff.

Well, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" as they say. Consider that the M1911 pistol is a century old and still going strong in some places, after all, so it's fairly reasonable for the Universal Century to assume modern-day pistols may carry this tradition on.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 26, 2011 5:38 am 
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Dendrobium Stamen wrote:
Well, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" as they say. Consider that the M1911 pistol is a century old and still going strong in some places, after all, so it's fairly reasonable for the Universal Century to assume modern-day pistols may carry this tradition on.

Not to mention that focus has been long shifted to MS warfare.Footsoldiers hardly do anything anymore except for guarding bases.

ECOAS suit might be the extent of personnel use technology we see in UC.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:56 am 
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Propellant wrote:
Not to mention that focus has been long shifted to MS warfare.Footsoldiers hardly do anything anymore except for guarding bases.

ECOAS suit might be the extent of personnel use technology we see in UC.


I'm digging up a dead thread for my first post in years. This is a topic I'm really interested in.

Anywho, It's not that the focus had long since shifted to Mobile Suit warfare, it hadn't. Prior to '79 (September of '79, after 7 months of war!) there was no MS-on-MS warfare. Lets break it down-

According to the Dyar Straights timeline (If there is a more fleshed out/correct version I'm not aware of it, but I've been away from the fandom for ages.) the Earth Federation begins in 1999AD, The EFF begins in 2009AD as a Peacekeeping force. There is no mention of actual war after this time until the OYW begins. (Unless you count Side 6's revolution in '77, backed by the ZMF.) So I'd be comfortable saying that the art of warfare simply died in the 160 or however many years you want to say elapsed from 2009 (Not our 2009, but the one on the timeline) until UC 0079.Further I'd say this is borne out by the astonishingly poor military leadership displayed throughout the Anime.

In our world, Small arms have essentially hit a brick wall- The standard M16A4 and M4 Carbine today, despite the evolution they've seen, are a basic design that dates to the fifties. The Glock in your local cops holster still uses a variation of John Moses Browning's short recoil action. The double action revolver a permit holder might have in his front pocket isn't that different from what was around in 1890. In a great many ways the firearms displayed in the Gundam universe are a vast step back than what we have today, missing optics, night sights, laser aiming devices, etc. And with firearms being used in a defensive role by ONE world government, produced only for government entities, where would there be any room for innovation on the technical front.?

Couple more things I've been thinking-

- Infantry would be as murderous on mobile suits in urban warfare as they are in real life against tanks. Given cover a sapper would be able to sneak up on a mobile suit and toss a satchel or shaped charge on the fragile ankle joints effectively disabling the suit for the duration of a fight.

- Mobile Suits should be no better at holding ground than tanks are, which is to say, not very well. Another reason why the infantryman has to exist in Gundam.

- As the small arms were a background detail it's easy to ape and stylize different designs. If the AR15/M16/M4 family looked like it does now back when 0080 and 0083 were animated I'm sure thats what we'd be seeing as opposed to the SA80/L85-esque 4.85mm Colt M72. Ergonomics and functionality aren't important in an anime! In 08MST during Aina and Shiro's first meeting, she dumps a magazine at him- the gun doesn't go to slide lock, implying to me that it either malfunctioned or nobody in the animation department thought of that detail.

- Armor and field gear tech are also lost arts apparently, as every time you see infantry with any kind of load bearing equipment or armor it's 1960's-1980's tech.

- If the Future were smarter, they'd have just kept on making the firearms of today instead of reinventing 1900's tech in time for the biggest war ever. Try carrying Zeon's "P08" (clever...) cocked and locked with that ring trigger, they'd call you holey. MS Igloo and the UCHG kits took this more seriously, bringing the FN Minimi inspired M299, the M2-esque M60 and such to the series. Though the very WWII German style Zeon small arms are interesting. (The MG74 being almost a direct clone of the MG34 in it's Leichtes Maschinengewehr form.)

-On the Igloo front, it's worth noting that Infantry did play a role in the Earth Attack Force's spearhead.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 2:58 pm 
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Propellant wrote:
So they never bother to invent new firearms in the future,relying on tried and true that has been around since before space immigration? :|

I guess everything goes into Mobile Weapons and stuff.


In terms of cureent-day firearms tech, the designers have pretty much exhausted the possibilities. Everything right now is a matter of finding the best arrangement of existing characteristics and capabilities that are necessary for the needed weapon. If the EFF and ZMF have weapons that are contemporary-looking, then it is because their contemporary role is required. Anything else is window dressing. Although the Axis Zeon Nambu pistol clone and other wink-nudge appearances must be taken with a grain of salt. Actually, UC uses more submachine guns than current military forces do. Given that their security forces work in the close confines of side colonies and ships, using less-powerful pistol rounds make sense.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Zeonista wrote:
Given that their security forces work in the close confines of side colonies and ships, using less-powerful pistol rounds make sense.

Ships I'll give you, but trying to describe Island 3s as "close confines" when they're five miles wide and 20 miles long is a bit of a stretch, wouldn't you say? Maybe that's close quarters in terms of, say, artillery, but for small arms it's plenty big.

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:05 pm 
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Current-day weapons tech is hardly stagnant, either. Take Metal Storm as one example which Ryujin loves to bring up. Or just caseless ammo in general, which is under development (and has been for years) as a way to reduce the weight of current ammunition stocks.

Granted, the M1911 is a century old and still killing people, while John Browning's other classics the M2 .50 caliber machinegun and Hi-Power are still in business, too, and nearing the a hundred years, but that doesn't mean technology is "stagnant". Sometimes nations keep their current weapons just because they don't want to spend the money to replace them (the US M16/M4 family being a classic example) despite recognized flaws.

Gundam doesn't introduce new small arms very often because -- and I know this will shock many -- infantry firearms aren't the focus of the show. So there's no incentive to spend development time (and money) on new small arms.

Though, personally, I thought the Federation rifle with the recoiling barrel, used by the White Base crew on a regular basis (shooting at Char in Side 7, Ramba Ral's infantry on Earth, and at A Baoa Qu) was a pretty novel concept; it certainly allowed random civilians to put up good and above all fairly accurate automatic fire. Which is more than most modern-day assault rifles will do.


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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 1:10 am 
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Black Knight wrote:
Current-day weapons tech is hardly stagnant, either. Take Metal Storm as one example which Ryujin loves to bring up. Or just caseless ammo in general, which is under development (and has been for years) as a way to reduce the weight of current ammunition stocks.

Granted, the M1911 is a century old and still killing people, while John Browning's other classics the M2 .50 caliber machinegun and Hi-Power are still in business, too, and nearing the a hundred years, but that doesn't mean technology is "stagnant". Sometimes nations keep their current weapons just because they don't want to spend the money to replace them (the US M16/M4 family being a classic example) despite recognized flaws.

Gundam doesn't introduce new small arms very often because -- and I know this will shock many -- infantry firearms aren't the focus of the show. So there's no incentive to spend development time (and money) on new small arms.


Though, personally, I thought the Federation rifle with the recoiling barrel, used by the White Base crew on a regular basis (shooting at Char in Side 7, Ramba Ral's infantry on Earth, and at A Baoa Qu) was a pretty novel concept; it certainly allowed random civilians to put up good and above all fairly accurate automatic fire. Which is more than most modern-day assault rifles will do.


This IS understood- You wont sell many model kits that way! :lol: It would be a waste of time to spend time/money researching firearms and developing ideas when they are such a minor role in the various stories- in almost all media the firearm is only important when it's important to the story. Also worth keeping in mind that the Japanese aren't gun people, most people aren't... I take the stuff in the Anime at face value, I'm busy enjoying the show. When you discuss it in technical terms, then you gotta kind of chuckle at the Anime.

As far as tech being stagnant- It's incremental, not revolutionary. The AR15/M16/CAR/M4 has evolved incredibly just over the last few years, but no one has really designed a replacement for it that warranted the price of entry. The biggest leaps are in optics and ergonomics. Red Dot optics are now small enough to effectively mount on a fighting handgun, and everything has a light and laser attached. In Gundam, a justification for the lack of current accoutrements on the rifles would be- the world has been at peace, the Fed Forces main focus was space power, the earth-side army probably only saw deployment as a peacekeeping force. The tech may have simply been lost as it wasn't relevant. Likewise further development wasn't relevant.

THAT could also explain (in a way that doesn't toss the art people under the bus!) why the firearms tend to be so, goofy.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 5:36 am 
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As an aside, the US Army's in the process of field-testing the LMG component of its LSAT program. Asides from a whole bunch of weight-saving features, the version being tested fires cased telescoped ammunition made of polymers instead of traditional brass, which reduces the ammo's weight significantly. The new plastic casing is also reported to function quite well in carrying much of the heat of combustion away, so there might be some benefits regarding the issue of cook-offs. Work is also being done on a caseless ammo version, apparently based heavily upon previous work done by Dynamit Nobel for the H&K G-11.

It kinda makes me smile that a number of the companies who competed in the ACR program are now working together in the LSAT program, and I'm sure that BK would appreciate eventually having a lighter LMG to lug around.

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