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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 7:02 pm 
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toysdream wrote:
This passage from the Master Grade kit manual seems to be the only explicit account of the Gouf Custom's origins, and how it relates to the H8 Flight Type:

Quote:
Mass production of the 07B series took place mainly at Granada and the California Base, using updated J type production lines, but it is said that the B3 type made heavy use of parts from machines that were redesigned and produced in the Zeon homeland for use as Flight Type prototypes. Thus its mobility and maneuverability were distinctly superior to the pure California Base version, and it was often referred to as the "Gouf Custom." [...] It is confirmed that the MS-07B-3 was deployed to a secret Principality weapons development base in Southeast Asia no earlier than late October, U.C. 0079. This machine made heavy use of parts that had been redesigned in the Zeon homeland for use in Flight Test Type development, and it was one of the final versions produced during the One Year War.


This leaves open the possibility that the Gouf Custom was actually assembled at the California Base, using these new parts, and then delivered to the Apsaras development base. (This is supported by the comparison to a "pure" California Base version.) In this case, the B3 type had presumably been introduced by October.


So the B3 was created using components of the H8 and not the other way around.

Regarding the Gouf Flight Type program, so after it was cancelled the B-type Gouf was mass produced instead and the Dodai YS, GA and II were used to provide it with sub-flight units for aerial combat. But these might have not provided the desired results and as the Federation began deploying new aerial units such as Core Fighters and Core Boosters, Zeon decided to restart the program, producing as a sub-product the Gouf Custom. Would this be more or less what could have happened?

toysdream wrote:
I've never heard anything about the Gigan being used on Earth, though. Where does this come from?

-- Mark


Regarding the Gigan, its profile does says it was deployed to many bases as a defensive unit, although it doesn't actually says Earth. I assumed that since it looks like a ground unit, these bases were probably on Earth. But now that I think about it, in the original script a Gigan was supposed to destroy the Gundam, so it does probably have some space combat capabilities.


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Gelgoog Jager wrote:
But these might have not provided the desired results and as the Federation began deploying new aerial units such as Core Fighters and Core Boosters, Zeon decided to restart the program, producing as a sub-product the Gouf Custom. Would this be more or less what could have happened?


This made me think of something, do we have any idea how widely produced the Core Fighter is? White Base has a couple (Five, IIRC), and presumably more are built for some of the other mobile suits that are running around (I don't know which extraneous Gundams might need them, but presumably the various extra basic Guncannons would...). MS IGLOO shows a couple of extra attached to those Interceptor Boosters, so they seem to be deploying them in basic fighter roles as well, which might raise the total considerably (At the very least, they liked the design enough to reuse the nose and cockpit of it on the mass produced Jet Core Boosters we see in 08th MS Team).

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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:06 pm 
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mcred23 wrote:
This made me think of something, do we have any idea how widely produced the Core Fighter is? White Base has a couple (Five, IIRC), and presumably more are built for some of the other mobile suits that are running around (I don't know which extraneous Gundams might need them, but presumably the various extra basic Guncannons would...). MS IGLOO shows a couple of extra attached to those Interceptor Boosters, so they seem to be deploying them in basic fighter roles as well, which might raise the total considerably (At the very least, they liked the design enough to reuse the nose and cockpit of it on the mass produced Jet Core Boosters we see in 08th MS Team).


Quoting the MSV-R comic here (on the chapter about the Core Booster Plan 004, translation not mine; not sure if this is the same with the description of the Plan 004 in MSV-R):

Quote:
The core system developed for the RX project was originally developed as a way to increase the survival rate of the MS pilot, functioning as an exceptional escape system.

A highly agile fighter jet was the byproduct of their development, but they made one miscalculation. The system was not put into use on the mass-production GM. Because of this, the prepared production line was stopped in an instant.

However, starting with the White Base, there were a number of squads that were using mobile suits with the Core System. Having to keep producing spare parts for these units had the Federation racking their brains. That is when a thought occurred to give the Core Fighter the firepower, agility and cruise ability it lacked, and equip it with a booster unit.

The plan was to salvage their expenses by mass-producing them as a fighting force. Thus, something that started as an appendix in the RX Project was developed into a proper unit line called the Core Booster.

But there were three terms for production:
1. For the sake of short production time, only existing technology may be used.
2. Because the Core Fighter is an expensive unit equipped with such features as the learning computer, the cost of the booster must be low.
3. It must function both within and outside the atmosphere.


(It goes on to describe the development of the Plan 004 as a prototype to the Core Booster we see in the MSG Trilogy, and dismisses the Jet Core Boosters as other projects to be developed.)

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:35 pm 
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mcred23 wrote:
Gelgoog Jager wrote:
But these might have not provided the desired results and as the Federation began deploying new aerial units such as Core Fighters and Core Boosters, Zeon decided to restart the program, producing as a sub-product the Gouf Custom. Would this be more or less what could have happened?


This made me think of something, do we have any idea how widely produced the Core Fighter is? White Base has a couple (Five, IIRC), and presumably more are built for some of the other mobile suits that are running around (I don't know which extraneous Gundams might need them, but presumably the various extra basic Guncannons would...). MS IGLOO shows a couple of extra attached to those Interceptor Boosters, so they seem to be deploying them in basic fighter roles as well, which might raise the total considerably (At the very least, they liked the design enough to reuse the nose and cockpit of it on the mass produced Jet Core Boosters we see in 08th MS Team).


Well, in this thread it says:

toysdream wrote:
Core Fighter Series
Core Booster: 16 produced, six deployed in combat (Mobile Suit Variation 3).


Beside the units on White Base, there were 2 at Odessa, which are seen taking out a Gaw (MS Igloo 2), 2-3 Core Booster II Interceptor types at Jaburo (MS Igloo: Apocalypse) and at least one for testing Plan 004. However, as PowerdGNFlag mentioned, the Jet Core Booster IIs on 08th are derived from the Core Booster, but are not considered in that count.

Back to the original MSG, there were the two Core Boosters, and least 4 more including Ryu's unit and the ones forming each of White Base's MS, which would give a total of at least six on White Base alone. IIRC, the novel actually indicated that White Base originally had 5 or 6 Core Fighters, I'll need to check it again to be sure.


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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:26 pm 
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Gelgoog Jager wrote:
IIRC, the novel actually indicated that White Base originally had 5 or 6 Core Fighters, I'll need to check it again to be sure.

The novels give a tally of six Core Fighters aboard the Pegasus, all of which are shot down during the Side 7 attack, as I recall.

Amuro activates the Gundam using a Core Fighter it's already been configured with; presumably the same holds true for the Guncannon pair they also recover, unless there were a pair of spares aboard the Pegasus that weren't explicitly mentioned (or that I've forgotten).

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 6:32 pm 
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Yeah, I saw that number in the old thread and dismissed it as outdated. As you noted, the six figure fits nicely to the number that White Base uses during MSG, but IGLOO introduces at least two or three more, and I wasn't sure if the ones seen at Odessa in IGLOO 2 were ment to be a quick cameo from the ones from White Base or not, which would add another pair to the number. From all of those alone, we've got a minimum of ten. Like I said before, I would assume that the Guncannons (The previously mentioned thread has at least six being built) and some of the Gundams that are running around behind the scenes (Or in the case of at least one Guncannon, in the background of the third MSG movie :P) would need more, and that would put the total over 16...

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 7:47 pm 
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I have also been meaning to ask if the OYW Dodais are only usable by Gouf and Zaku types, or rather by units with small feet size, particularly in the case of the Dodai II. It's hard to imagine units with large size feet such as the Dom and Gelgoog to stand on top of one such unit.

Probably that influenced the design of the wider Dodai Kai, which can even fit 2 MS in a single unit.


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 Post Posted: Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:05 pm 
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the early dodai units were meant to only carry light ms and As far as i could tell they both required that some one be in the cockpit to fly it. The post war Dodai kai added the handles that allowed an ms to control them. The Dodai was actually built to be the Zeon Earth Air force bomber and was refitted to carry Gouf's when the flight type project never got off the ground. The zaku could use it due to the gouf reusing the Zaku's body style as it's base. The Zimmiad Dom series is simply too large and got around the slow running speed issue by makeing the feet in to hovercrafts rather than zeonic's attempt at an flying ms.

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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 1:57 am 
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JEFFPIATT wrote:
the early dodai units were meant to only carry light ms and As far as i could tell they both required that some one be in the cockpit to fly it. The post war Dodai kai added the handles that allowed an ms to control them.


I thought that OYW Dodais only required a pilot if the MS boarding them lacked a commander's antenna for controlling them remotely. In fact, if the B-type Gouf was mass produced as a result of the cancellation of the Flight Gouf project, it could explain why every B-type Gouf has a commander's antenna: becuase they were meant to work in conjunction with Dodais.


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 Post Posted: Thu Sep 08, 2011 4:07 pm 
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I have not actually seen anything relating that the Dodai YS was able to be operated as an UAV the antenna may have been used to communicate with the manned bomber by zeta we see heavy use of sub flight units where the ms rides in a prone position grabbing an handle to control the unit the gundam official glossery definition for sub flight system mentions that one year war era Dodai's required someone operateing them.
Quote:
Sub Flight System (SFS)

During the One Year War, the Principality of Zeon adapts the Dodai bomber into a flying platform for transporting mobile suits through Earth's atmosphere. But the Dodai also retains all the functions of a conventional aircraft, such as navigation and fire control systems, and requires its own dedicated pilot. This makes the Dodai highly versatile, but also rather expensive.

After the war, the Earth Federation Forces refine this concept into a dedicated mobile suit support device, substantially reducing its cost. These Sub Flight Systems, or sled, come in both atmospheric and space versions. During the Gryps Conflict, they are often unmanned models controlled by the mobile suit itself, but later versions are equipped with cockpits so that they can also be used as transport craft. [Zeta Gundam, Char's Counterattack]

http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/uc ... ightsystem

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 09, 2011 9:08 pm 
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Still mulling over rollout dates, I've been giving some more thought to the matter of the Dom. My previous notions on this, as summed up on the previous page, basically hinge on two factoids: The claim in the MSV series that the YMS-09 Prototype Dom rolled out "more than six months after the outbreak of the war," and the claim in the Master Grade Dom kit manual that production of the MS-09 Dom began in late September of U.C. 0079. Just to be specific, here are the relevant passages from the MG kit manual...

Quote:
The prototypes were produced in a factory in the Zeon homeland, and functional testing was performed at the California Base. After the external armor was modified to a more aerodynamic shape, it entered mass production in roughly the same form as the prototype. It was given the model number MS-09 and the name "Dom." Records indicate that production was entrusted mainly to Granada and the California Base. [...] This machine is the mass production type whose production began in late September of U.C. 0079 following design changes from the YMS-09, mainly in terms of the shape of the external armor. This is the earliest version, which entered trial production at the Granada factory.


The MG Rick Dom kit manual also says that the MS-09 production lines at Granada were converted to the MS-09R in early November. But technically, that could just mark the end of MS-09 production rather than the start of MS-09R production.


On the one hand, this seems consistent with the relatively late appearance of the Dom series in the animation. On the other hand, it obliges me to simply ignore an awful lot of other sources. In the interests of equal time, here's a sampling of other claims...

Zeon Military File says that the YMS-09 Prototype Dom was completed in June (rather than July). On July 31, the Principality chooses the Rick Dom for production over the MS-06R-2. The CD-ROM goes on to say that "With this decision Zimmad's production lines, which had been producing Zeonic's MS-06F, spent up until late August converting to the MS-R09. A production system was established in September, and presently produces about 200 machines a month."

MS Era and the various Newtype timelines that preceded it say that the "first production model" of the MS-09 Dom was completed in July, and combat deployment of the Rick Dom begins in October.

Hobby Japan's Gundam RPG says the YMS-09 Prototype Dom rolls out in June, and the "YMS-09R" in July. The MS-09 enters production in July and begins deployment in August. The MS-09R enters production in September and begins deployment in October.


There's also some interesting info tucked away in the margins of the MSV series. From the MSV handbook and the original kit manuals, we have this on the Prototype Dom:

Quote:
There were essentially no differences from the later mass production type, and no more than external adjustments were performed. According to the records, the YMS-09 ended with two machines, and a few weeks later production formally proceeded as the MS-09.


And this on the Dom Tropical Test Type:

Quote:
The first and second prototypes had been sent to the California Base, but one month later, the second unit underwent a number of improvements to become a research testbed for a tropical version of the MS-09. This was the Tropical Test Type. The activity of the MS-09 Dom on the African front was truly remarkable, but the mobile suit could not display its full performance because mechanical problems occurred during combat under high temperatures. As a result, a great number of requests for improvements were submitted from units in the field. Among these were a short-range communications antenna, radiator pipes on the head, and the reversion of the back propulsion system to the type used in the YMS-09. This feedback came only one month later.


I'm not sure exactly what they mean by "feedback." From the context, I suspect they mean the Tropical Test Type was completed one month after they began getting requests from the front lines. After this, the California Base began customizing existing machines with Tropical Test Type equipment and shipping them to the African front. In the second MSV book, there's an image which is said to date from just before Operation Odessa, and the accompanying caption explains...

Quote:
The mobile suits in the photograph are YMS-09D Dom Tropical Test Types, with which the Caracal Corps was performing combat tests on the northern African front. Including reserves, four units of the D type Dom were assigned to the Caracal Corps. Two of these were pre-production Doms which had been converted to D type specifications.

After this, thirty units were chosen from among the pre-production and mass production machines, and made into D type Doms. These were remodeled for use as testbeds for tropical combat mobile suits. Of the twenty machines which had been finished by the time the California Base surrendered, a little more than ten reached the front lines. When the Federation Forces recaptured the California Base, they discovered a few machines that were in the middle of conversion, but as of the end of the war no completed machines had fallen into Federation hands.


This is the only reference I've found to a "pre-production" version of the Dom. Clearly there were enough of these to supply the Caracal Corps with two Tropical Test Types, and more left over for the subsequent conversion work. And if the Tropical Test Type was created in response to requests from frontline forces, then these forces were presumably also using the pre-production version.


The existence of a pre-production version, which is visually indistinguishable from the Prototype Dom, may enable us to resolve the conflicting rollout timelines. Let's say that the two prototypes are completed at Side 3 in June, shipped to Earth for testing, and swiftly approved for production. The California Base, which is acutely aware of the needs of Zeon's ground forces, starts cranking out an unmodified "pre-production type" almost immediately - "a few weeks later" as per the MSV Handbook - and thus the "first production model" rolls off the assembly line in July, as per the Newtype/MS Era timeline.

Meanwhile, the original prototypes have been shipped back to the California Base. Within a month, they've started getting feedback from the frontlines about the shortcomings of the pre-production type, and development of the Tropical Test Type begins. The design is finalized a month after that, and the California Base starts shipping converted machines to Africa for combat testing. Thus they end up in the hands of the Caracal Corps before the start of Operation Odessa.

But that's just the California Base. In this scenario, Granada hasn't started producing Doms yet. At the end of July (as per the Zeon Military File), the decision is made to adapt the Dom for space use as well, which would probably require a substantial redesign so they can share as many parts as possible. The timing dovetails nicely with the early stages of the United Maintenance Plan, too. So Granada spends the month of August redesigning the Dom and retooling its Zaku production lines, and then in September it starts producing both the standard Dom seen in the anime, and the Rick Dom, simultaneously on the same production lines! So everybody gets to be right - both the standard "mass production type" Dom and the Rick Dom enter production in September, and begin deployment in October.

At some point, once the mass production type is finalized, the California Base stops making the pre-production version and switches over its assembly lines. Perhaps they might skip the standard Dom entirely and go straight to the Dom Tropen and Dowadge - I haven't really thought about the timing yet...

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2011 12:01 am 
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I thought we'd established some time ago that the Dom & Rick Dom had to have been produced more or less in tandem. While the ground-use Doms are new to White Base in the month of October, Aina's use of the RD-4 Zaku in the first week of October seems to have come right at the end of the Rick Dom developmental work, too. Or at least, it could be interpreted that way.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:52 pm 
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I think the notion of simultaneous rollouts works for these machines, yeah. Not to mention with the claim in Entertainment Bible 1 that the engineers "completed the MS-R09 Rick Dom in only two months" - that's exactly the span between the July 31 decision to adopt the Rick Dom, and the "late September" production start date in the Master Grade kit manual.

I'm also reminded of one of Kycilia's lines from the beginning of TV episode 24, in which she berates her subordinates about reinforcing M'Quve's forces at Odessa. "And what's more, out of the heavy mobile suits that are being deployed to various units, there should be some that can handle combat on Earth. We should think about transferring those, too... Have the Doms been transferred to the Tri-Stars yet?"

To me, this suggests that Zeon has actually been deploying Doms - the only "heavy mobile suit" then in use - primarily to its space forces, and Kycilia is having to maneuver to divert them to Earth instead. (The verb used here, 回す, means something like "redirect, transfer, divert.")


The main point of my previous post, really, was to explore the notion of an earlier ground-only "pre-production" run based on the Prototype Dom. This allows us to embrace the oft-cited June rollout date for the Protototype Dom and gives us time for the fairly involved development of the Tropical Test Type prior to Operation Odessa. This also gives us some parameters for the timing of Gouf development, too.

It seems to be very common for the Principality forces to produce a small "pre-production" run prior to full-scale mass production. This was the case with the original MS-05A Zaku I and the YMS-14 Gelgoog, and the MSV Handbook claims that the same thing happened with the Gogg as well, with a lag of two months between the initial production run and the mass produced version.

The key term here, which is variously written as 量産先行 and 先行量産, lends itself to a variety of translations. Literally it's "production-preceding" or "preceding production", but in practice it seems equivalent to a range of terms such as "pre-production," "trial production," and "early production." The machines thus described include the RX-79(G), RGM-79(G), and RGM-79(E) on the Federation side, as well as the YMS-14 Gelgoog and early versions of the Gouf, Dom, and Gogg.


This in turn leads us into the mysteries of the Gouf development process. Given that mass production of the MS-06J Zaku II is current placed at October of U.C. 0078, and various sources say the Prototype Gouf was completed three months later, I think we can make a good case for putting the rollout of the YMS-07 in January. For what it's worth, Hobby Japan's "Gundam Mechanics" card series says that the Prototype Gouf was completed "at the beginning of 0079, just after the outbreak of war."

From here, the Principality goes on to evaluate the rival YMS-07 and YMS-08 designs, merging them into a single machine. The finalized MS-07B version is said to be based on the YMS-07B, a "pre/trial/early production" version like those mentioned above, and the MSV series repeatedly claims that Ramba Ral's Gouf is one of these YMS-07B units. In that case, the YMS-07B is evidently as identical to the standard Gouf as the YMS-14 is to the standard Gelgoog.We're also told that, when the MS-06J production lines were eventually switched over to Gouf production, the built-in weapons weren't ready yet and so there was an initial production run of 32 MS-07A types with no fixed weapons.

According to the MSV books, the first combat deployment of the Gouf came in the third landing operation on March 18, U.C. 0079, a claim that's been widely repeated since then. The Master Grade kit manual, for example, says that "Although a few mobile suits of the MS-07 series were deployed in combat during the third landing operation on March 18, U.C. 0079, full-scale mass production began a few months later."

I don't think it's ever been unambiguously stated, though, exactly which version of the Gouf was used in this landing operation. According to the MSV series, the MS-07A type was produced during the conversion of the MS-06J production lines, which would presumably represent the start of "full-scale mass production" and lead almost immediately to production of the standard MS-07B type. It's more likely, then, that the type used in the third landing operation was actually the YMS-07B type - since it's always referred to as a pre-production version, rather than a prototype, it could easily have been produced in similar numbers to the YMS-14 or the mysterious pre-production version of the Dom.


So in timeline form, we'd have something like this...

U.C. 0078.10: Mass production of MS-06J Zaku II begins.
U.C. 0079.01: Rollout of YMS-07 Prototype Gouf.
U.C. 0079.XX: Rollout of YMS-07B.
U.C. 0079.03.18: Combat deployment of YMS-07B.
U.C. 0079.XX: Mass production of MS-07 begins.
U.C. 0079.07: Combat deployment of MS-07 begins.

The start date for MS-07 production would probably be around June; this would be "a few months" after the third landing operation, as specified in the MG kit manual. Production begins with the weaponless A type and then shifts quickly to the standard B type. The July date for combat deployment is as per the Newtype/MS Era timeline.

As per my previous post, the timeline for the Dom series might look something like this:

U.C. 0079.06: Rollout of YMS-09 Prototype Dom.
U.C. 0079.07: Trial production of YMS-09 begins at California Base.
U.C. 0079.07.31: Principality decides to adopt Rick Dom.
U.C. 0079.08: Development of YMS-09D Tropical Test Type begins.
U.C. 0079.08 (LATE): Granada completes conversion of MS-06F production lines.
U.C. 0079.08: Development of YMS-09D Tropical Test Type completed.
U.C. 0079.09 (LATE): Mass production of MS-09 and MS-09R begins at Granada.
U.C. 0079.10: Combat deployment of MS-09 and MS-09R begins.

Here, I've labeled the "trial production" version of the Dom as the YMS-09, since it seems to be physically identical to the Prototype Dom. I suppose we could also call this the MS-09A, as opposed to the standard MS-09B version, but as noted above there's some precedent for these YMS types having pretty substantial production runs.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:12 am 
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toysdream wrote:
The MS-06K Zaku Cannon is a bit trickier. For a while there, sources such as Entertainment Bible 39 and the Hobby Japan RPG claimed that this machine began production and/or deployment in May of U.C. 0079. But the recent Master Grade kit returns to the explanation originally given in the MSV series: The Zaku Cannon was created in response to the appearance of the Federation's RX-77 Guncannon, and entered combat for the first time between mid-October and mid-November of U.C. 0079. Like the MS-06D, it makes use of technology from the Gouf.


The recycled explanation doesn't sound quite convincing. We know that Guncannon is first deployed on September 23rd. One of the first confirmed Zaku Cannons is spotted soon after Shiro Amada joins the 08th MS team on October 8th (I don't know if the exact date is indictaed somewhere). While this unit doesn't have legs, its torso is clearly that of a Zaku Cannon, and most importantly, it's deployed in Asia, far away from where it's development shoudl have just recently started. It seems quite unlikely that the development would take place in just a couple of weeks.

Even if we want to stretch things out by considering that the first appearance of the Guncannon might be referring to the sighting of its components on Side 7 on September 18th, that is just an extra week for the whole development of the Zaku Cannon to take place, and initial production run of 9 units and production and deployment of other units at other fronts.

Personally I would find more convincing to think that the Zaku Cannon's development did took place on May, which resulted in the production of 9 pre-production units, but due to its balancing issues, the project was cancelled. On September, when Zeon becomes aware of the existance of the Guncannon, they decide restart the project and mass produce the Zaku Cannon after all, at least in limited quantities.

However there is another detail we should consider: the Dom Cannon. As you might be aware there are two version of the Dom Cannon from Harmony of Gundam: one with a single long cannon known as MS-09K-1, and the most common version with twin cannons, the MS-09K-2. We know that both units are resemble more the YMS-09 produced on California Base rather than the MS-09B/MS-09R produced in Granada.

The recent PS3 games (check the fourth tab) have depicted their version of the Zaku Cannon using a different cannon which greatly resembles the one of the MS-09K-1. Also note that the legs of the Dom Cannon seem to be based on the Zaku Cannon's, sharing a similair vent/thruster arrangement. Furthermore, this new version of the Zaku Cannon has a small thruster unit below its backpack, in a similiar way like the one on the MS-05L (most likely developed afterwards), where the rocket launchers of the original version were connected.

While I don't know much on the subject, but I suspect that these thrusters might have been intended not only to increase mobility, but to prevent the Zaku from losing balance after firing its cannon (Ironically, these extra thrusters might enable the Zaku Cannons to be used in space as the ones seen on Zeta are supposed to be capable of).

So, what about this:

The original version of the Zaku Cannon (let's refer to it as MS-06K-1) is developed in May, but it is eventually canceled due to its balancing issues after 9 units were produced.

When the Guncannon appears, Zeon decides to produce an equivalent unit. Despite its flaws, the existing version of the Zaku Cannon enters limited production as it is and is shipped to various fronts such as Asia. At the same time California Base is already developing and improved version which can overcome the balancing issues (let's say a MS-06K-2) while aslo applying the UMP. This new version is also intended to provide data for producing a mid range unit based on the Dom series and the first version (MS-09K-1) even uses a similiar cannon. The second version (MS-09K-2) has smaller twin cannons which resemble more the ones of the Guncannon.

I should mention that both versions of the Dom Cannon commonly depicted using weapons from the Desert Zaku and Zaku I, which seems to indicate that just like the Dom from 08th team, these are already UMP complaint in order to use weapons from other MS.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 1:30 pm 
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The Zaku Cannon that appears in The 08th MS Team actually has the exact same backpack and cannon as the Dom Cannon (allowing for minor style differences between mecha designers Yamane and Katoki). I agree that its appearance does call the orthodox explanation of the Zaku Cannon into question, but it's not necessarily too early to be credible; the timing here is roughly mid-October, which is when the MSV books indicate the Zaku Cannon was first deployed.

According to the MSV series, the Zaku Cannon was originally being developed as the MS-06J-12, an optional equipment set for the standard MS-06J. The final Zaku Cannon has a bunch of extra modifications, including leg thrusters based on those of the Gouf, and many aspects of its design are very different from those of previous Zakus. (I actually have a pet theory about this, which I'll illustrate some day soon.)

The 0081 version of the Zaku Cannon appears to have mounted a Dom Cannon cannon on a standard Zaku Cannon backpack, whereas the 08th MS Team version has a Dom Cannon backpack as well. If we allow all these into evidence, it seems like the developers tried mixing and matching a wide variety of equipment, with varying degrees of success. Later on, according to the old 1/100 Zaku Cannon kit manual and the MG kit, they even tried equipping it with a beam cannon; perhaps this has some relation to the Zaku I Sniper Type?

All in all, there seem to be a bunch of different configurations of the Zaku Cannon (and Dom Cannon) with a bunch of different equipment setups. But they all seem to show up pretty late in the war, after the introduction of the Guncannon, and I don't think a May development date is really very plausible.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:50 pm 
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The zaku cannon we see in SE Asia during 08th ms team seems to have been modfied to function like a pillbox unit rather that copying the guncannon that the other units seem to do. looking at the line art it seems to be missing it's legs with lead me to beleve that when that base got hold of the units they solved the inability of the unit to stand and fire by converting there ms in to a pillbox that or they were running out of parts and scrapped the legs.
http://www.mahq.net/mecha/gundam/08thmsteam/ms-06k.jpg

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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:04 pm 
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I had forgotten about the MS-06J-12. Actually that unit might actually make the orthodox explanation more acceptable. That unit could have been under development before the Guncannon appeared (maybe this was the unit that actually began developing on May) and it would allow Zeon to already have a base model which they quickly modified into the Zaku Cannon.

As for the Zaku Sniper, your timeline indicates thta Zeon doesn't begin development of beam weapons until late November and the only date I can make out of the HG model kit manual is December U.C. 0079. Due to their similiar equipment design, this unit might have been produced after the appearance of the Federation's RGM-79[G] Sniper Type. Since the unit has a beam weapon, it doesn't have the same recoil problem from the Cannon type units and therefore a Zaku Cannon frame is deemed unnecesary. On the other hand, as the war situation worsens, California Base probably considered that since the unit would most likely avoid direct combat, using a Zaku I frame as a base would acceptable, which would also allow them to give a to their oldest units a much necessary upgrade.


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 Post Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Agreed on all counts. Regarding the Zaku I Sniper Type, the UG-UC kit manual explains that this was developed at the California Base after support from the homeland was cut off in the aftermath of Operation Odessa, and its beam rifle was created using technology from the Gelgoog. So it seems that it was slapped together around November.

And yes, given its behind-the-lines role, it didn't need a high-performance machine as a base and so this was considered a good way of recycling obsolete Zaku I units. The writeup in Gundam Ace's "Game's MSV" feature claims that, once this project was successful, the developers intended to create similar options for the Zaku II and Gouf which could be used while riding on a Dodai.

-- Mark


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 Post Posted: Sat Oct 01, 2011 10:12 am 
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Regarding some MS-X units, can we consider their roll out dates to be:

Act Zaku: After December 13th, when the 4 Pegasus clss launch from Jaburo. Mallet Sanguine's unit is seen in Granada after some of the initial battle so of the Thoroughbred. This unit already has a functional beam rifle.

Galbaldy Alpha: During the last week of the war. Unit belonging to Philius Stream who was involved in the events of the Plot to Assesinate Gihren.


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