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 Post Posted: Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:40 am 
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http://members.fortunecity.com/heero195 ... lgeese.jpg

hmm, this screenie seems to show that it can be used handheld if needed, which means the III could wield its shield whip like Epyon if needed.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 4:33 am 
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Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
That depends on a lot of factors. Whether it's positive or negative Gs (toward your back/feet is positive, toward head/stomach is negative; people are much better at handling positive Gs than negative),


Yes, it depends on a lot of factors, but fracturing ribs are more associated with high Gs of deceleration, since if you're accelerating at the highest velocity your vehicle can go and then you choose to hit the brakes(or crash), you can guarantee that the gs you'll endure are more or less twice than that of your acceleration. In Stapp's experiment, he basically suffered cracked ribs during rapid decelerations due to the safety harness digging painfully on his ribs.

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I doubt that 15 Gs could break anyone's ribs (unless they were slammed up against something, anyway), but they'd almost certainly be unconscious.


To be fair, it was mentioned in the series that Otto passed out(and broke some of his ribs) when he test-piloted the Tallgeese. Zechs didn't pass out because he's Zechs.

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In the real world, even pilots trained to deal with high-G maneuvers and wearing G-suits aren't expected to withstand more than 9 Gs without blacking out.


It's been mentioned that with a G-suit, pilots can tolerate 9G for relatively long periods of time, although that's the aviation answer for G-force tolerance 50 years ago, specifically, at the end of WWII. So, it's not up to date and somewhat inconsistent considering that we now have air force pilots and jets pulling maneuvers that exceed 10Gs, w/o any noticeable strain on the pilot. Still, the 9G is still being used as a possible threshold for G-tolerance of air force pilots.

Not to mention the physical conditioning, resistance and strength training, and mixed anaerobic and aerobic exercise that allows increased G-tolerance through isolation of the upper body during high gs of acceleration which keeps the blood on their heads, even without a G-suit. I think they call it anti-G straining maneuvers, by using developed isometric muscle contractions and breathing techniques to isolate different parts of the body, but I doubt anyone in the real world would be crazy enough to pilot an aircraft without a G-suit on and risk their lives even with the adequate physical conditioning.

-----------------------------------

Since we're talking about Wing, I'm curious about Mobile Dolls and their capabilities. The Wing MS encyclopedia has left me wondering if it has better details about the MDs.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:09 am 
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Since we're talking about Wing, I'm curious about Mobile Dolls and their capabilities. The Wing MS encyclopedia has left me wondering if it has better details about the MDs.


MD's as depicted in the show seem to be able to just choose a target to lock onto, the priority target (a Leo or a Gundam), and then the doll does everything it can to destroy said target. They also seem to be protective of self, dodging or deploying planet defensors to defend against enemy fire. And their reaction speed and aiming ability is far above that of the average pilot. That said, their ability seems to be also restricted by the MS the MD system is installed on. For example, when Duo fights the Mercurius and Vayaete dolls, they have the AI data of Heero and Trowa respectively. However, the D-Hell has presumably higher reaction speed and it is able to defeat the two. I'm guessing, if the Heero and Trowa AI were put into the Zero and Heavyarms and they fought Duo, the outcome would be different.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 12:18 pm 
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I interpreted Duo's easy victory over MD Vayeate and Mercurius, and Duo's "they're just Mobile Dolls" line, to be because even if they have the data of Heero and Trowa, they don't have the brains of those two pilots, and so they can't spontaneously execute maneuvers, they can only slavishly copy things Heero and Trowa did before, which many not be appropriate to the situation. After all, how often did Heero & Trowa, in Vayeate and Mercurius, fight a single enemy MS with high speed and close-combat abilities? The only two options are against Zechs's Tallgeese and Quatre in Wing Zero, and Vayeate didn't survive that fight so it's probably not included in the database. It's also somewhat debatable whether Mercurius's data was copied before Quatre blew it up; the OZ forces were in a bit of a pinch at the time and probably had other things on their minds. So the "combat data" in the Vayeate and Mercurius was probably Heero & Trowa fighting Mobile Dolls or, at best, their minor, half-assed skirmish against Tallgeese. Not a great data sample.


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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 2:01 pm 
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It's similar to how Trieze and others were saying the Mobile Dolls had no "soul" like a manned MS would.

Or, as Heero pointed out, they can only carry out, to their maximum efficiency, only what their programming has them tuned for (simulating human piloting and such) which, as pointed out, means they can ONLY do that and not do anything else themselves, which ends up making them even more predictable (for him anyway) than MS piloted by other humans. (He'd "have more trouble with space mines", lol.)

This is where the new MD System created by Zechs for the Virgo II, that integrated parts of the Epyon System, was supposed to partially make up for, especially if you had a human like he or Dorothy willingly controlling the movements of the MDs behind that.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 9:30 pm 
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I think the most apt metaphor for MD "intelligence" is video games that "learn" from the player, such as fighting games that recognize common tactics and adapts to them. While they can gradually improve, it doesn't change the fact that they're simply computer programming (if leg sweep, then jump and that sort of thing) and they can be outpaced rather easily. As for Duo vs the MDs, not only is the above in effect (even if we ARE talking about two pilots who are equal or superior to him), but it's debatable as to whether or not Heero and Trowa were fighting to full effect during their time with OZ.

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 Post Posted: Sat Mar 26, 2011 11:28 pm 
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It doesn't help that the Virgo and Virgo II are essentially a combination, mass produced Mercurius and Vayeate themselves, only a bit weaker. So having only 2 separate, more powerful ones taking on each aspect (offense and defense, of course) to a higher degree doesn't seem like it'd be THAT much more difficult overall for any of the pilots.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 12:15 am 
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Does the Sandrock Custom (EW) and Early Type still have the missiles on the chest? Cause when I looked at the armaments, it doesn't seem to have them. And are the machine gun and shield part of the Sandrock Custom's armaments (http://media.photobucket.com/image/sand ... 4207_o.jpg) ? Or are they only on the TV version?

EDIT: Does the Tallgeese II have Gundam eyes or the green Tallgeese visor? cause I'm seeing conflicting depictions when comparing the anime screenshot to the MSIA.


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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 28, 2011 5:39 pm 
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The missiles are only on the TV versions - the EW versions eliminate them in favor of what looks like Deathscythe's hyper jammers.

And Tallgeese II had a two-eyed Gundam-style face, but still one that matched with the Tallgeese design.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:31 am 
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Well, I've been lurking around Dalong and I've just noticed that the MG Wing Zero Custom Manual was translated to Korean by someone named ruseunel.

I've just skimmed through it and noticed that there's a bit of info on the head unit which states that the Zero system has the ability to enhance the human body and can scan the brain for any biological effects which is caused by the Wing Zero's movements, by controlling the amount of secretion of neurotransmitter which allows it to ease, or deceive the transmission of information stimulus such as G load of pain, stress or impact at the time of abrupt acceleration and maneuvers, which allows the pilot to pull movements that are beyond human capacity.

It also mentions that the pilot's will acts as a trigger for the machine cannons.

I'm not confident with my translation, though. It would help if anyone wants to re-check the facts by going to Dalong.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 8:38 am 
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Manage to come across the chinese translated version of the manual today while searching. Below is my attempt at translating the text, which is roughly similar to what DoubleZero has posted.

The head unit contains in a high density fashion, various sensors and zero system’s calculation(processing?) unit which links them together, allowing the pilot to be one with the MS. Zero system will analyse, predict the development of each situation and pass on the choices available and the corresponding result to the pilot’s brain. In short, the system will tell the pilot the method of gaining victory beforehand. This prediction is based on achieving tactical victory. In order to gain victory, it will even choose the method that can cause the pilot’s death. Simply put, the system does not consider the pilot’s condition or feelings, victory is the only goal. Zero system also includes high performance feedback system within the cockpit. It checks the activity/life signal of various parts of the pilot’s brain and even stimulates the brain. An example is that through checking, the system is able to know the pilot’s physical condition, reducing or even blocking the body’s nervous signal produce during impact cause by maneuvering, MS’s movement, etc, allowing the pilot to continue piloting after exceeding his body’s limit. Although the Zero system's hardware component is in the cockpit area, but without the large amount of data from the sensors inside of the head, it will not be able to function effectively. As such, WZC’s head is the most important part of the MS.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:39 pm 
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Interesting stuff to be sure. I suppose the idea that the System can make you ignore your own biological functions explains the extreme stress we see being put upon the pilots. As soon as the System shuts down, all that fatigue catches up with you all at once, which can be pretty extreme even for someone as well-trained as Heero.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:01 pm 
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It sounds like the ultimate example of tunnel vision. You become so fixated on the notion of victory that all else goes out the window, including human frailties.

But that has always been Zero's failing, I suppose. It values short-term victory over long-term consequences. How much good will it do to drive the pilot to insanity or exhaustion in the first battle of a much larger conflict?

Then again, a ruthless commander might simply cycle new pilots through the cockpit as soon as the old ones burn out as a "solution."

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:10 pm 
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That would explain why the Gundam scientists shelved the design, though; they didn't have an endless supply of pilots, they had only five, into which years of training had been poured.


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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Well, there's also how a person can easily get controlled and possibly pick the "wrong" path shown to them by the ZERO System as well, like Quatre destroying a colony and nearly killing Heero and Trowa, Trent almost destroying a colony, Duo and Trowa could've ended up down that path as the "visions" showed, Zechs seeing himself destroying Peacemillion and getting Zero beheaded by Wu Fei.

Basically, if the pilot wasn't "strong" enough, they could easily end up going on a mass killing spree with Wing Gundam Zero and killing everyone in sight if that's what was deemed best to them. Even the Scientists weren't that desperate. As shown, even high-end pilots like the Gundam pilots and Zechs weren't immune to its (or the Epyon System's) effects and it took several uses for Heero and Zechs to ultimately master them.

Though, now that makes me wonder if the Epyon System has anything unique about it installed by Trieze or if it's merely a pseudo-copycat of the ZERO System in terms of merely the general system of "foresight". Same with the Tiel's Impulse story and the ZERO System 1.5 and 2.0s and if they could have anything else about them besides what we already know or even the same things.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:08 pm 
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E08 wrote:
Manage to come across the chinese translated version of the manual today while searching. Below is my attempt at translating the text, which is roughly similar to what DoubleZero has posted.

Spoiler: show
The head unit contains in a high density fashion, various sensors and zero system’s calculation(processing?) unit which links them together, allowing the pilot to be one with the MS. Zero system will analyse, predict the development of each situation and pass on the choices available and the corresponding result to the pilot’s brain. In short, the system will tell the pilot the method of gaining victory beforehand. This prediction is based on achieving tactical victory. In order to gain victory, it will even choose the method that can cause the pilot’s death. Simply put, the system does not consider the pilot’s condition or feelings, victory is the only goal. Zero system also includes high performance feedback system within the cockpit. It checks the activity/life signal of various parts of the pilot’s brain and even stimulates the brain. An example is that through checking, the system is able to know the pilot’s physical condition, reducing or even blocking the body’s nervous signal produce during impact cause by maneuvering, MS’s movement, etc, allowing the pilot to continue piloting after exceeding his body’s limit. Although the Zero system's hardware component is in the cockpit area, but without the large amount of data from the sensors inside of the head, it will not be able to function effectively. As such, WZC’s head is the most important part of the MS.


Sweet info, I guess I wasn't too far off. Thanks.
Anyway, last thing I want to know is the Wing Zero's Wings, it's been a subject of speculation here before IIRC. There's also something about a "nano-level" in the Wing section, it would be great if you translate this last bit of information

HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
Trent almost destroying a colony, Duo and Trowa could've ended up down that path as the "visions" showed, Zechs seeing himself destroying Peacemillion and getting Zero beheaded by Wu Fei.


I thought these were examples of ZERO removing 'doubt' off the pilot so that they wouldn't hesitate during battle.

Quote:
Though, now that makes me wonder if the Epyon System has anything unique about it installed by Trieze or if it's merely a pseudo-copycat of the ZERO System in terms of merely the general system of "foresight". Same with the Tiel's Impulse story and the ZERO System 1.5 and 2.0s and if they could have anything else about them besides what we already know or even the same things.


According to Master Chang in Frozen Teardrop, they're mostly similar.

Spoiler: show
Wufei wrote:
Epyon cut, bombed and crushed dozens of mobile suits above the ground.

Every swing of the heat rod is destructive.

I can guess that is perhaps accordingly to the most extreme tactical attack method, which is processed by the "Zero System", rather than Heero's own choice.

This may be unnecessary but, that time, though it is accurately called as the "Epyon System", it's all right to call it as "Zero" since they are almost identical to each other.

The problem is that even if its basic layout is for 'shoot-outs', the system made 'mass murder' possible.


While the goal of 'shoot-outs' is to cease the fighting as one scrambles for his life, in cases he is seen by a large force of the enemy, it allows extreme "annihilation" in order to counter them

As expected, I can't help thinking that it is contradicting.

And that is a fairly placid contradiction.

I can feel that the words "war" for "peace" sounded just the same.

"Goals" and "means" are self-contradicting, at the same that they are being mixed.

Such thing should be obvious yet for some reason Treize equipped the mobile suit with "Zero system" and aviation abilities.

I do not know the meaning behind that.

Though I have no idea, I do know that Treize said that this Epyon is a so-called "guide".


Perhaps, one is to choose his own path.

It is in the pilot's will to choose between "shoot-out" or "mass murder".

That may be true but there's no doubt that making a choice causes an extreme mental burden.

In the end, its first pilot, Heero, went overboard.

Not losing the enemy, it became unclear which enemy he was supposed to defeat. The action he chose was to massacre all those who carry weapons, and all humans.

There's no mistaking that Heero was consumed by madness during that time.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:21 am 
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The wing unit profile is rather difficult to translate, so errors may be present.

WZC has 2 pairs of wing units with different characteristics. They serve as flight, AMBAC unit and as shielding equipment against attacks.

Wing units are composed of movable wings made from a combination of many modules. As the wing’s surface structure is able to change its shape, it allows real time flight control. The wing unit serves as the unit’s mobility device as well as shielding device; main wings are able to cover the frontal portion of the MS while the sub wings contain thrusters. The high strength root component of the wing stabilizes the MS during repeated acceleration and deceleration caused by high speed movements. Movable wing bracket is like the fifth limb of the MS, allowing AMBAC in space and helps the unit to “fly” in the atmosphere. The basic structure of the main wings has the same specification as the MS’s frame, strong as a shield yet soft and movable. The wing’s “feathers” are made from gundanium alloy, not only do they look like the real thing; their structure imitates the real feathers. When these heat and impact resistance “feathers” spread out, they are able to “remember” the shape and location parameters of each other, thus complementing each other. This control is thanks to nano technology and is like an artistic piece that utilised the full characteristics of gundanium alloy. The “feathers” will self-destruct upon impact; drop off automatically during high heat, so as to protect the main wing and the main MS. Propulsion capability of the sub wing has been strengthen, even when the main wings are lost, mobility and flight capability are not reduced. As the surfaces of the sub wings are made of the same material as the “feathers” of the main wings, its durability cannot be compared to the wings of other normal weapon.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 11:28 am 
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So the feathers on the main wings function as Explosive Reactive Armor? That's pretty interesting. I always knew that the wings allowed for thrust vectoring and high maneuverability, but knowing they were deliberately made for shielding is rather cool.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
Do you think it refers to the actual feather-looking parts or actually the entire white armoring surface that would be reactive armor on the wing binders? It wouldn't make sense for the feathers to explode off (because you'd be losing aerodynamic control surfaces for no reason), but maybe the broad surfaces of the wing instead act as reactive armor.

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 Post Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2011 12:04 am 
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Quote:
he “feathers” will self-destruct upon impact; drop off automatically during high heat, so as to protect the main wing and the main MS.


That doesn't seem practical, but the wing's whole concept is pretty amazing.

---

Anyway, can I have some confirmation on some info:
*According to Japanese Gundam wiki, the Aries has a flight speed of Mach 2 or more.
*Also, it states in the Mobile Doll article that an MD incorporates the algorithm based on the data made when fighting other pilots during combat(Did this come from the Wing MS Encyclopedia by any chance?).

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