MSV-R and Vintage MS Specs

[toysdream]

Number three in an intermittent series. My first vintage specs thread was here, and the second one was here; that was three months ago, long enough that I guess I should start a new thread instead of gravedigging the previous one.

So anyways, I wanted to note that the ongoing MSV-R series has given us a bit more data to work with when it comes to the weight specs for One Year War mobile suits, particularly on the Zeon side.


For starters, the MSV-R series gives the base weight of the MS-06S Zaku II as 56.2 tons. The standard MS-06F Zaku II was recently listed at 58.1 tons; ditto for the MS-06FS, which is basically just a minor variant.

The MSV-R series hasn't yet given us specs for the MS-06J version. But since the MS-06G Zaku II, with redesigned legs and extra thrusters, has a base weight of 58.1 tons (full weight 75.3 tons) I suspect that the standard J type would be listed at 56.2 tons, as per many recent books and kit manuals.


No particular revelations in the Dom series specs. It remains hard to figure out just how much all those optional backpacks are supposed to weigh. But Dozle's custom MS-09R Rick Dom has a base weight of 63.7 tons, suggesting that the regular Rick Dom may be close to the 62.6 tons of the original Dom; 62.6 tons is also the figure listed in the color pages of the 2009 MS Encyclopedia for the MS Igloo Rick Dom and Gato's personal unit.


Finally, the Gelgoogs. The MS-14BR High Mobility Type has a base weight of 53.3 tons, and the MS-14C-1A Gelgoog Cannon is 56.2 tons. Those figures are really close to the official figure of 53.5 tons for the regular MS-14B, and the 55.8 ton weight that Gundam Mechanics came up with the Gelgoog Cannon. At this point, the official 42.1 ton figure for the standard MS-14A and the lighter Gelgoog Cannon spec listed in the color section of the MS Encyclopedia are starting to look like outliers.

The upshot of this is that the lighter base weights we used to see for the Rick Dom and Gelgoog series are looking increasingly suspect. In the case of the MS-14A, we don't have an alternate figure to replace it; any guesses as to how much that High Mobility Type backpack might weigh...?

-- Mark

[Evex]

Well the backpack for the high mobility type Gelgoog depends on what you want to base it off of. We can assume that the MS-14S Gelgoog is similar to the normal MS-14A Gelgoog, if I remember correct all the S does is designate it as a commanders model. First I think we need to know what the max weight of the suits are with the new figures.


Gelgoog High Mobility type: empty 53.3 metric tons, max gross 76.2 metric tons.
Gelgoog Cannon: empty 56.2 metric tons, max gross 80.4 metric tons.

We know that the regular MS-14A has a max gross weight of 73.3 metric tons, so assuming nothing was changed from MS-14S. We can assume that a mass production high mobility type could be created by switching out the back packs. The MS-14A mass ratio is 1.74 and the High mobility types mass ratio is 1.43. Given that the mass ratio of the MS-14B is heavier then the MS-14A we can assume that the back pack is heavier allowing for less internal space. Now taken the MS-14B mass ratio and applying it to the MS-14A empty weight. We get a max gross weight of 60.2. This would give us an estimate that the Gelgoog high mobility back pack is around 13.1 metric tons.

[toysdream]

We don't necessarily want to go taking all the existing weight specs at face value. That said, the current specs for the High Mobility Type are fairly reasonable, as are the Gelgoog Cannon specs from Hobby Japan's Gundam Mechanics. (These specs have since been reprinted in the HG-UC kit manual and in the black-and-white pages of the 2009 MS Encyclopedia.)

Just to recap: Current official specs for the MS-14B are base weight 53.5 tons, full weight 76.8 tons. The Gundam Mechanics specs for the MS-14C are base weight 55.8 tons, full weight 79.8 tons. The difference between base and full weight is thus 23.3 and 24.0 tons respectively; this aligns pretty well with the specs from Zeta Gundam.

For example, the Galbaldy Beta has a base weight of 36.3 tons and full weight of 56.9 tons, a difference of 20.6 tons. It has mass ratio of 1.35, which tells us that it packs 6 tons of carried equipment and 14.6 tons of propellant. (Mass ratio isn't full weight divided by base weight; it's full divided by unfueled weight, which in turn represents base weight plus carried equipment.) Assuming that these Gelgoogs carry a similar amount of equipment, they'd each be packing about 18 tons of propellant.

The regular Gelgoog, on the other hand, is basically a B type minus the backpack. Since the backpack includes a propellant tank, the standard version must have a smaller propellant supply. if we're working backwards from the B type specs, we'd need to subtract a certain amount for the dry weight of the backpack, and an additional amount from the full weight to reflect the loss of the extra propellant. I think this would probably bring the full weight of the A type down to about 70 tons, but that's just a rough guess.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I have two theories, which depend on whther there do was a sudden weight reduction on Zeon MS at one point and another which considers that the weights were retconned:

Theory 1 - Weight reduction:

Assuming that the weights are correct and that we actually have 2 different weight stats for the MS-14C (I mentioned this was possible in the second thread Mark mentioned on the first post), let's assume that this weights reduction does not affect the weight of the backpacks, but rather the weight of the actual MS. So using the stats from Mark's threads we have:

53.5 (heavy B-type)
55.8 (heavy C-type)
42.1 (light A-type)
44.5 (light C-type)

If we substract the weight of the heavy B-type from the heavy C-type we have 2.3. Likewise, substracting the weight of the light A-type from the light C-type gives us 2.4. In this scenario the weight difference between an A-type and a C-type would be 0.1, meaning that a light B-type would weight 42.2 (more on this at the end).

Theory 2 - retconned weights:

If the weights were retconned, we could instead take a proportional approach in which we find that:

-A heavy B-type weights 95.878% as much as a heavy C-type
-A light A-type weights 94.607% as much as a light C-type

The weight of a light B-type would then be 95.878 of 55.8, or rather 42.666

Theories on the weight of a lgiht B-type:
Theory 1 = 42.2
Theory 2 = 42.666

In both cases it would seem that the B-type is just a bit heavier than an A-type and that in comaprison the C-type is a lot heavier. I think this could be possible if we consider that the B-type's backpack probably only has the additional thrusters and the rest is empty space for propellant. On the other hand, a C-type's backpack, while it might also have some space for carrying additional propellant, it will still most likely end up heavier due to the beam cannon itself and the additional generator to power it up. Therefore I do think that either theory could be possible in their own scenario.

Another factor could be that a B-type might have some armor removed or replaced with lighter armor to improve speed, after all B-types are usually depicted without shields, but that is little more than mere speculation.

Also, it's interesting that all the units with the C-1A's additional propellant capacity do are C-types, which could indicate a lower propellant capacity compared to the B-types.

[toysdream]

I did notice that eerie coincidence, but it beggars belief that the A and B types have such a similar base weight, or that the B type backpack has a dry weight of just 0.1 tons. I think it might be instructive to look at other examples of backpack swaps and how they affect mobile suit weight specs.

Consider the Dom series, for instance. The Tropical Test Type supposedly has a base weight of 65.1 tons; the Dom Cannon, 68.0 tons; the Cold Districts Version, 69.4 tons; the High Speed Test Type, 68.2 tons. The first two of these are based on the Prototype Dom, the latter two on the production model, and the Cold Districts version apparently removes the Dom's backpack thrusters and replaces them with a separate backpack. (Unless the new backpack is just added on top.)

It seems a little weird that the Tropical Test Type and Cannon backpack replacements add so much to the base weight of the Prototype Dom. Perhaps the Prototype Dom's base weight of 60.8 tons is with no backpack at all...? That would help explain why it weighs less than the backpack-less production model.

I'm also tempted to bump up the full weight of the B type, perhaps to the 80-ton range of the Gelgoog Cannon, Marine, Jaeger, etc. But it seems like the spirit of this little number game is to try to change as little as possible, so let's see how far we can get by taking official B type specs as a given.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I forgot to ask this: do you have the weight stats for the Gelgoog from MS Igloo and or 08th MS Team?

[toysdream]

I don't think they ever associated specs with the 08th MS Team cameo. As for MS Igloo, they generally just list the standard MS-14B specs - height 19.2 meters, base weight 53.5 tons - but some of the books cite the 42.1 tons of the standard MS-14A instead. Since the Gelgoogs in that series are only identified as "MS-14", with no type designation, I guess it depends which specs the book authors feel like copy-and-pasting.

...although this confusion suggests another possible interpretation of the eerie confidence you noted earlier. Perhaps, if the 55.8-ton "heavy" weight for the Gelgoog Cannon corresponds to the 44.5-ton "light" weight spec, then the 53.5-ton "heavy" weight actually corresponds to the 42.1-ton "light" weight? The difference between the two sets of specs - 2.3 tons when we're comparing the "heavy" weights, 2.4 tons when we're comparing the "light" ones, a variation that we'd probably need to ascribe to some kind of calculator rounding error - would reflect either the difference between the High Mobility and Cannon packs, or the addition of a Cannon backpack to a standard Gelgoog, depending on which version we want to attach the second set of specs to.

-- Mark

[Evex]

(Mass ratio isn't full weight divided by base weight; it's full divided by unfueled weight, which in turn represents base weight plus carried equipment.)

Do you mind explaining this to me. I've all ways thought mass ratio was the max gross weight of the mobile suit divided by its empty weight. I've never really understood about what the mass ratio actually stood for. Was it for equipment, or fuel or just the amount of internal space the MS has ?


I guess I'll try to stay away from mentioning mass ratio in this topic. Has any one thought to look at the total thrust in question, since it might give us an idea of how heavy the back pack is.

For instance the Ms-14A has a total thrust of 61,500 kg. The MS-14B has a total thrust of 79,900 kg, while the MS-14C has the same total thrust as the MS-14B. This means the MS-14B has 18,400 kg more thrust then the normal MS-14A. We also know that MS-14C uses a modified backpack of the MS-14B. I'm guessing by modified they might be talking about the MS-14C ability to mount a beam cannon. Assuming the MS-14B backpack isn't the MS-14A backpack with finely tuned thrusters. Then we have to assume the MS-14B backpack has larger thrusters. This would account for it having less internal space, and most likely less fuel. I'm also guessing that outside of the Gelgoog Jager all the Gelgoog's share the same frame, since in Char's Deleted Affair: Portrait of a Young Comet. Char's MS-14S is repaired with the arms of the MS-14F. I also believe that the backpack was replaced with that of the MS-14B. Then again this is a none "official" source when it comes to the gelgoog.

[Gelgoog Jager]

One more thing: other than uncertainity of MS Igloo, have we ever heard much about the 55 MS-14B that were mass produced along the 83 MS-14A? I was under the impression that the units that were given to rookies were mainly A-types, but what about B-types? If they were not given to rookies due to their more difficult handling, couldn't we assume that they were meant for more skilled pilots. In that case wouldn't it make sense to give priority to producing these first instead of the A-types?

My point is, what if the lack of a stat for a light B-type is due for there not being any such units to begin with? If the mass produced B-types were produced before the A-types, maybe in an attempt to give more time to more valuable skilled veteran soldiers to familiarize with their machines, these could lack the "upgrade" that made the later models lighter.

As for the lack of A-types converted into B-types, in the end A-types were probably not even meant to be upgraded into B-types, but rather into C-types, according to what we are told on the MS-14C's profile, which mentions that 122 sets of parts for converting other Gelgoogs into C-types were ordered by the end of the war. This would also mean that most of the B-types were meant to have the same modification.

[Brave Fencer Kirby]

Do you mind explaining this to me. I've all ways thought mass ratio was the max gross weight of the mobile suit divided by its empty weight. I've never really understood about what the mass ratio actually stood for. Was it for equipment, or fuel or just the amount of internal space the MS has ?

Mass ratio is a measure of how much propellant a vehicle carries, relative to its weight. As toysdream says, the mass ratio is full weight (which includes the weight of the machine itself, plus weapons, ammo, equipment like shields and the like, as well as propellant) divided by unfueled weight (which is full weight minus propellant). The higher a mass ratio, the more propellant the vehicle in question carries.

[toysdream]

Regarding total thrust: We've touched on this in the previous threads mentioned above. It seems that a lot of the time, the specs we're given include only backpack and foot thrusters, omitting the skirt and leg ones. For example, see the specs listed for the Gelgoog Marine and Rick Dom II in Gundam 0083. The difference between the Rick Dom II's thrust specs in this series - a total of 56,000 kg - and its Gundam 0080 specs - a total of 110,00 kg - could thus be attributed to those skirt and leg thrusters.

In that case, the figure we're been given for the MS-14B could likewise reflect just the backpack and foot thrusters, as with the Gelgoog Marine. Only the regular Gelgoog, which has no backpack, would include the secondary thrusters in its tally.

And since the regular Gelgoog has no backpack, and the B type has a backpack with a built-in propellant tank, the B type clearly has more total propellant. That seems like a no-brainer.


-- Mark

[domtropen]

Wondering does Zeon begin producing Gundarium in quantity by late OYW? Or only after they relocate to Axis? Is it possible that including more Gundarium into making parts may help to reduce weight on late-production MS?

[Evex]

Wondering does Zeon begin producing Gundarium in quantity by late OYW? Or only after they relocate to Axis? Is it possible that including more Gundarium into making parts may help to reduce weight on late-production MS?

I doubt Zeon would of produced large quantities of gundarium during the war, if they had done so they would of used it on their mobile suits. My guess is they started producing it when they got to Axis. This is because Axis itself is found in an asteroid belt, and was originally used for resource mining. You also have to consider different types of construction methods over the time period of the universal century. The Gundam Mark II is lighter then the Gundam, mostly due to its moveable frame construction, and by the time you get to the F91 you have the multiple armor construction method. You also need to remember that the F91 is half the size of most one year war mobile suits.

To be honest, I'm still trying to figure out how toysdream figured out the Galbady beta's equipment and weight and amount of fuel it carries.

Back on subject though. If the only difference between the MS-14A/MS-14S and the MS-14B is the backpack. Then couldn't we just say the extra weight from the MS-14B empty weight is the weight of the back pack ? The empty weight of the MS-14A is 42.1 metric tons, and the empty weight of the MS-14B is 53.5. The difference in weight is 11.4, since the empty weight doesn't include propellent or equipment couldn't the backpack of the MS-14B be 11.4 metric tons ? If this is true then we can assume that MS-14C backpack weighs 13.7 metric tons. This would make the MS-14C backpack 2.3 metric tons heavier then the MS-14B backpack, which would take into account the beam cannon.

[domtropen]

Yes but Gundam itself [lunar titanium/gundarium] is much lighter than Gouf and Zaku [super hard steel alloy]. The late MS-06R2, MS-17, late Rickdom/Gelgoog models, and Xamel [rather light despite its size] also get lighter somehow. The fed's GM III [many are upgraded straight from GM II] with new parts [probably with movable frame components and likely new armor materials too] also get quite a bit lighter despite becoming quite a bit more bulky.

[Gelgoog Jager]

I doubt Zeon would of produced large quantities of gundarium during the war, if they had done so they would of used it on their mobile suits. My guess is they started producing it when they got to Axis. This is because Axis itself is found in an asteroid belt, and was originally used for resource mining. You also have to consider different types of construction methods over the time period of the universal century. The Gundam Mark II is lighter then the Gundam, mostly due to its moveable frame construction, and by the time you get to the F91 you have the multiple armor construction method. You also need to remember that the F91 is half the size of most one year war mobile suits.

Actually Mark noted that the use of Luna Titanium Alloy is what could have led to the weight reduction seen in most late OYW Zeon MS, just not as an armor material:

Obviously, at some point Zeon obtained Luna Titanium technology; there are assorted claims about Zeon using it during the war, and of course they later refine it into Gundarium Gamma at Axis. I'd suggest that the use of his material for reactor insulation was what gave the Gelgoog its high power output and drastically reduced weight, putting it in the same technological ballpark as the Gundam and Hizack.

-- Mark

The fed's GM III [many are upgraded straight from GM II] with new parts [probably with movable frame components and likely new armor materials too] also get quite a bit lighter despite becoming quite a bit more bulky.

In teh case of the GM/GM II/GM III, I think we can attribute the weight differences in part to the generators, which IIRC are supposed to represent a significant part of a MS weight:

First of all, let's check some weight differences:

GM - 41.2mt
GM II - 40.5mt (0.7mt lighter than GM)
GM III - 38.6mt (1.9mt lighter than GM II)

Now generator outputs:

GM - 1250 kW
GM II - 1518 kW (268 kW higher than GM)
GM III - 1560 kW (42 kW higher than GM II)

Also, we can observe that the GM II is almost as bulky as the GM, while the GM III has a lot of extra parts on the legs plus a larger backpack.

What I suggest is that the more powerful generator of the GM II was also a lot lighter despite the 20% increase in output, which is the main reason the GM II became lighter than the GM.

In the case of the GM III, the generator increase was of less than 3%, however it could be a similar upgrade in the sense that it provided nearly as much output, but was significantly lighter. In such case the the additional parts wouldn't add as much weight than, for example, a generator that would provide the GM III 20% higher output than the GM II.

In the particular case of the GM II -> GM III I think this is quite posibly considering that the GM II was considered to already be an outdated machine by the beginning of the Gryps War, which we coult interpret as it not using the lightest generators already available, in turn leading to a larger technological gap between the GM II and GM III.

[toysdream]

We've addressed the overall weight specs in the earlier threads I linked at the top of the page. There do seem to be different "weight levels" for different Zeon mobile suits, and in many cases we have multiple base weights provided for the same mobile suit, which have been revised or retconned over time. A few of those examples again:

MS-06 Zaku Desert Type: 61.3 tons as per Entertainment Bible 1, 48.8 tons as per recent MS Encyclopedia
MS-09R Rick Dom: 43.8 tons as per older sources, more recently listed as 62.6 tons just like the standard Dom
MS-14C Gelgoog Cannon: 55.8 tons as per Gundam Mechanics (and supported by MSV-R specs), 44.5 tons as per recent MS Encyclopedia

It's possible the backpack alone could add 11-plus tons to the base weight of the MS-14B - more than a quarter of its body weight! - but it seems vanishingly unlikely, and the theory collapses when we start comparing it against the specs for other Gelgoog variations and Zeon mobile suits. We've talked about this in the previous threads so I'm not going to repeat it here.

And of course, if we're taking all the published specs into account, then the B type backpack would appear to add 11.4 tons to the Gelgoog's dry weight but only 3.5 tons to its full weight, meaning that its built-in propellant tank reduces its propellant supply by 8 tons. Etc etc.


In the second of the previous threads I noted that the standard profiles of the Hizack attribute its reduced weight largely to a lightweight new generator. Other older sources also claim that Luna Titanium was originally developed for use as reactor shielding, making possible the Gundam's compact and lightweight reactor. Putting these together, we can speculate that the use of Luna Titanium in the reactor is a key ingredient in reducing the base weight of mobile suits down to what we see in the Zeta era.


The mass ratio math, finally, is another one we've gone over many times. Let's rehearse the Galbaldy Beta example again.

Full weight: 56.9 tons. Divide by the mass ratio (1.35) to find the "unfueled" weight, and we get roughly 42.2 tons. This is the unfueled weight, with no propellant; you'll notice it's about six tons more than the Galbaldy Beta's base weight, and that difference appears to reflect its armament and carried equipment.

When you run the numbers for everything in Zeta and ZZ for which we have mass ratio specs, you'll find that this difference (unfueled minus base weight) is almost invariably a whole number of tons. 6.0 tons is the most common figure, with light payloads usually 5.0 tons and heavy armament typically 7.0 or even 8.0 tons. There aren't really any mobile suits with an armament payload of less than 4.0 tons.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

I checked what the model kits had to say on this matter:

MG:

2007 - MS-14S - 42.1 mt
2008 - MS-14A - 42.1 mt

HG:

2007 - MS-14A/MS-14C - 42.1/55.8 mt

Zeonography:

2005 - MS-14A/MS-14B/MS-14C - 42.1/53.5/55.8 mt

Basically all these indicate that both the MS-14A and Char's MS-14S weight 42.1 mt, while the B and C variations weight 53.5 mt and 55.8 mt respectively, which seems to confirm that they do consider that the backpacks add over 10 mt.

[toysdream]

The published specs are what the published specs are, yes. (Notwithstanding the sources that claim 44.5 tons for the Gelgoog Cannon.)

But I think my points above still stand: All the other backpacked Gelgoog variants, such as the Gelgoog Marine and Jaeger and Desert Gelgoog, have base weights in the 40-45 tons range, as does the Galbaldy Alpha. And if you look at the full weights listed in the above sources, and try to figure out why the full weight for the B and C types is just a few tons more than that of the A type, your head will explode.

-- Mark

[Gelgoog Jager]

Then we would have to go back to the previous theory about the 53.5 mt and 55.8 mt weights belonging to early Chimera Corps YMS-14 units which were converted into B and C types. Then the Gelgoog Cannons's 44.5 mt weight would be that of a mass produced MS-14A that was upgraded into a C-Type.

And for a guess regarding the lack of a light weight stat for the B-Type, I would have to insist on the possibility that the batch of 55 MS-14B units mentioned on the manual of the MG MS-14A ver 2.0 were produced before the 83 MS-14A units, which could be justified as due to priority been given to their assignment to aces and officers, but in turn were built using the heavier components that made the early YMS-14 heavier than the mass produced model.

As for the 42.1 mt weight of the MS-14S, Char doesn't gets his Gelgoog until late December, so it wouldn't be so odd that it got the same upgrade as the MS-14A by that point. Actually I would find more odd that Zeon simply let Char's unit remain stored in some warehouse for 2 months collecting dust. I'm starting to suspect that maybe his unit wasn't produced along the units given to the Chimera Corps, but rather much later.

And speaking of the Chimera Corps I noticed a few things:

MS-14B (Uma) - 56.2
MS-14BR - 53.3 (0.2 lighter than a standard B-Type)
MS-14C-1A - 56.2

First of all, the MS-14BR is actually lighter than a standard MS-14B despite the additional thrusters. I suppose that the leg armor most be actually quite heavy. On the other hand we have Uma's unit and the MS-14C-1A which both have a weight of 56.2, explained due to both being equipped with the same equipment and backpack. Above anything else, this seems to imply that they chose to simply disregard the weight difference between the head of Uma's unit and the one of a MS-14C (and they probably consider the same to be true regarding a the head of a standard Gelgoog). I should also note that the backpack of the C-1A-Type is not actually missing the cannon, but rather is a different backpack more closely based on the one of a B-Type.

Anyway, Uma's MS seems to be a perfect example of the early YMS-14 prototypes being heavier than the mass produced machines built during the last month of the war, which probably include Char's MS-14S.

What really caught my attention is the MS-14D: it's low weight suggests that it was among the late developed Gelgoogs, and yet, as desert use MS our first guess would be that it was developed at California Base. This base fell approximately on December 5th, so if some units managed to reach other fronts, as suggested by Gundam Unicorn ep 4 and its original mention as part of ZZ-MSV units, then it should have been completed even earlier, unless it wasn't produced there.

It occurs to me that this unit might have not been produced in California Base, but rather in space. I should note that the Dowadge, a MS commonly considered a desert unit, has a very similar color scheme which is different from other desert units manufactured at California Base, such as the MS-06D, MS-06K (the normal color scheme is said to be the unit's desert color scheme) and MS-09D. Furthermore, the Dowadge is based on the MS-09B rather than California's MS-09A.

Maybe all these units were sent as supplies to for Ground Forces after the fall of California Base, after all in the last episode of 08th MS Team we can see that MS-14A units equipped with beam rifles are being sent to the ground forces. This confirmed by the lone MS-14A that the newtype kids used to boil the water in that episode, and also provides an explanation on how the units used by Visch Donahue and the ones we see in ZZ arrived to Earth.

[toysdream]

I suppose, just because we've never been given specs for a production type MS-14B, that doesn't mean they don't exist. As I noted above, although MS Igloo has plenty of them, the books generally either list the specs for a standard MS-14A or the usual heavy weight for the MS-14B.

This does leave a couple of lingering questions, though. How would we spec out the original YMS-14 (or MS-14S) - essentially, a High Mobility Type without a backpack? Would Char's Gelgoog really be spec'd out differently from all the other units of this type? And of course, there's the whole other issue of rationalizing the full-to-base weight comparisons across all these different machines.

As for your speculation about the Dowadge and Desert Gelgoog, it's interesting stuff, and there's virtually no official info to go by in this area...


Speaking of the Dom series, I do think it would be worth looking at the specs for those machines as we ponder how much all these modular backpacks might weigh. The relatively low weight of the backpacked Prototype Dom is a glaring anomaly, but the more I think about it, the more I like the idea that the standard Prototype Dom specs are sans backpack. If this machine, like the Gelgoog, was originally meant to carry a variety of swappable backpacks whose weight isn't included in the basic specs, then figuring out the weight of the desert, cannon, cold districts, and other options is basically just an exercise in simple subtraction.


And finally, speaking of subtraction: Let's take a quick look at the specs for these latter Zeon machines as they currently stand, specifically the difference between base and full weight, which for brevity's sake I'll refer to as payload from now on. With a handful of exceptions, we don't have mass ratio specs for these guys, so we can't subdivide this amount into armament and propellant. C'est la vie...

MS-09 Dom: 19.2t
MS-09F/TROP Dom Tropen: 34.2t
MS-09G Dowadge: 38.2t (6.0t armament / 32.2t propellant)
MS-09H Dowadge: 43.9t (approx 9.5t armament / 34.4t propellant)
MS-09R Rick Dom: 34.8t
MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II: 34.3t

MS-14A Gelgoog: 31.2t
MS-14B Gelgoog: 23.3t
MS-14C Gelgoog Cannon: 24.0t
MS-14F Gelgoog Marine: 36.2t
MS-14Fs Gelgoog Marine: 39.5t
MS-14Jg Gelgoog Jaeger: 39.8t
MS-14J ReGelgu: 38.9t (4.0t armament / 34.9t propellant)

YMS-15 Gyan: 15.9t

RMS-117 Galbaldy Beta: 20.6t ( 6.0t armament / 14.6t propellant)
AMX-117R/L Gaz R/L: 30.3t (approx 5.2t armament / 25.1t propellant)

MS-18E Kaempfer: 35.0t

As a consequence of the general trend towards light mobile suits, most of these payloads are in the general ballpark of 30-40 tons. In fact, the only outliers are the original Dom, the B and C type Gelgoogs, the Gyan, and the Galbaldy Beta. If we set those aside we get a pretty coherent set of data.


For example, the MS-14A Gelgoog and the Gaz R/L, which have respectively no backpack and a very tiny one, represent the low end of the scale. In fact, if the Gaz had a full 6 tons of armament like the Galbaldy Beta, then the Gaz and Gelgoog would have the exact same payload.

Moving up the list, we see that the Gelgoog Marine has a payload exactly 5 tons higher than the standard Gelgoog. Their armament is pretty different, so this could account for a ton or two in either direction, but at a first approximation we could say that the Marine's backpack adds about 3 tons to its base weight and another 5 tons in propellant.

Meanwhile, I note that the Dowadge's payload is exactly 4 tons greater than that of the Dom Tropen. That's probably thanks to its external fuel tanks. The Rick Dom and Rick Dom II are all in the same ballpark as the Dom Tropen.

And what about those outliers? If we compare the Dom to the Dom Tropen (a 15 ton difference). the MS-14B to the Gelgoog Marine (about 12 tons difference), or the Galbaldy Beta to the Gaz (10 tons difference), we get a sense of what we'd need to do to bring all these specs into alignment with each other.

-- Mark