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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:40 pm 
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I guess it was cheaper and easier than trying to design a whole new Guntank to fit the bill at the time. Even with the Guntank II, it STILL didn't move the gunner. Just moved one of the pilots from the torso to the tread area while the gunner was still in the head area.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:48 pm 
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i guess it was to recycle and lines built for the early guntanks and refit any remaining top and bottom units to work with out a core fighter just throw in a swiveling core block and bolt it down.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:46 am 
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I find it really hard to believe that the Mjolnir is even capable of damaging phase shift armor. My reason for this is because unless we see it in animation all we’re going by is what? What’s written on Gundam Official, no offense to Mark, but that info comes from what? Fluff that was on the model kit? The same model kits that felt the need to slap ‘Gundam’ at the end of all of those MS’s names? I’d like to take a moment to look at the animation to see if there were any grounds for that claim.

The only time so far that I’ve seen the Mjolnir do more then knock a mobile suit around (I’m past 46 right now and I’ve only maybe seen it hit any mecha, phase shifted or not, like two times) is when it took off the head of the freedom (in episode 46 a little before the commercial break), but even then, the head was already half blown off and the remaining part’s armor had shifted down. It looks like the head more or less separates at the neck with only a few bits of armor flying off (the head itself just disappears entirely after the blow lands so I can’t exactly say how bad of damage the hammer did there to the down phased armor). Regardless at least in that example we can’t say anything about its effectiveness against phase shift since the head was down shifted at the time. I’m not saying the Mjolnir is a completely ineffective weapon- when we see it in use against other ms later on it’s able to achieve grunt kills with a single strike consistently, but I don’t think its any more ‘powerful’ then other examples of cold metal melee weapons.

A quick comparison btw, it seems rail guns seem to have never been particularly effective against phase shift armor, during the Battle of Orb in Seed we see the Forbidden take a nearly identical point blank double shot as shin later does from the freedom’s rail guns. In fact the only time I can even think of that a phase shifted MS gets damaged by a “physical” attack is when the Freedom gets impaled during Operation Angel Down. If not for that exception I’d feel I could safely say that it’s impossible to even damage phase shift armor with a purely physical attack. But because of it I’m honestly confused as to why rail guns couldn’t work against phase shift since a round from that would have an even greater penetration power then Impulse’s angel killing lung did.

At any rate, this topic isn’t about phase shift armor’s defensive capabilities it’s about cold metal melee weapons effectiveness against mecha. In regards to that using seed as an example the times we do see solid weapons hit non phase shifted MS always results in heavy damage or destruction –since it’s almost always grunts getting hit it’s just a lot of death. Either by a flail crushing and some how causing an explosion that engulfs the unit, or by a blade slicing the unit more or less cleanly in half and an explosion occurs anyway.

I think what we can take from looking at seed is that the MS in it (ignoring phase shift for the moment) are either physically stronger then UC suits or less well armored then said UC suits as both flails and swords are show to be equally effective and greatly effective against mobile suits. Either that or we just chalk seed up as “too little data” and ignore it.

(sorry for such long posts btw)

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:51 am 
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crashlegacy14 wrote:
A quick comparison btw, it seems rail guns seem to have never been particularly effective against phase shift armor, during the Battle of Orb in Seed we see the Forbidden take a nearly identical point blank double shot as shin later does from the freedom’s rail guns.


Probably because it was >_>

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 2:56 am 
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oh, I see what you're saying. No it wasn't reused animation when the move was preformed on shin (though it did get used twice in seed), different angles if I remember correctly.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 10:43 am 
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Quote:
I’d feel I could safely say that it’s impossible to even damage phase shift armor with a purely physical attack

The Abyss Gundam would like to have a word with you about how a railgun mangled its thrusters that one time.
It may be two exceptions, but the bottom line is, the animation shows that a physical attack with enough momentum behind it is indeed capable of overwhelming Phase Shift. It doesn't happen often, but it does happen.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:55 pm 
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I've got another way to look at those. In most, if not all cases, a MS employing phase shift does not use it on its internal structure, just the armor. I'm a bit vague on if mechanical parts like joints and thrusters are covered.

Mjolnir is certainly capable of of slamming into a phase shifted head and applying more force than the neck frame can withstand. This would probably tear the head straight off without leaving a scratch where it struck.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 3:33 pm 
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Yeah, that's right. Presumably-considering the way the damage is portrayed-Freedom hits Abyss' thrusters through the opening and causes them to explode outwards, effectively mangling the structure the armour is held on. It's noted that with the exception of Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice that joints are still vulnerable.


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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:40 pm 
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Yeah the joints aren't covered in PS (outside of Strike Freedom & Infinite justice that is) in the case of the freedom's head getting taken off, that thing was compromised ten was from Thursday, it's phase shift even shut down (on the head only, clearly shown in the animation) a UC Zaku could probably have taken it off with fire from the 120mm.

BTW, what episode was it the abyss took damage from it? I've been rewatching stuff for this thread -mainly because I'm bored, but also to be more accurate. I'm not going to sit through destiny agian for this through. not THAT bored.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jan 05, 2011 8:18 pm 
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Honestly I agree with you about the Mjolnir, and I have no idea where that's from, but that's what's there so I don't know what to tell you. Also based on the end of the first episode of Seed (Or the start of the second.) the MS still do take some damage through PS armor, the Strike had dents and marks in it while the PS was down, after the PS stopped the GINN's bullets. So I'm guessing those would be from that, or I'm looking into it too much. So technically based on that it may mean that the Mjolnir would do damage through PS rather than directly to it, though rail-guns should do the same in my mind.

But as for the swords, I don't remember a single time they were used effectively without the target or the user using their thrusters. I remember one Strike Dagger in space getting hit from behind by a boosting GINN, which was likely going pretty fast given how fast it caught up, and the only others I remember were Moebius units who "flew" into the sword, but the GINNs still tended to boost into the attacks then as well.

As for the explosions they happen because A) it's more dramatic, and B) it's cheaper then animating wreckage. :P Technically though, about Freedom's head and the Zaku taking out the head, the PS being down wouldn't matter since the head had a gaping hole, though I don't think the bullets would have the force to directly take it off, it would have destroyed the head.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:47 am 
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RGM-79G GM Command wrote:
But as for the swords, I don't remember a single time they were used effectively without the target or the user using their thrusters. I remember one Strike Dagger in space getting hit from behind by a boosting GINN, which was likely going pretty fast given how fast it caught up, and the only others I remember were Moebius units who "flew" into the sword, but the GINNs still tended to boost into the attacks then as well.

well we could argue that almost every attack that landed from the Mjolnir was either involving it's thruster firing, it's ms boosting, or hitting a target that was moving towards it. we could make this argument even if a few cases you couldn't be sure because of the attacker and attacked where rarely in the same frame. Honestly as far as I care the animation showed neither weapon being all that much more effective then the other. which would I have rather had on my MS? the Mjolnir due to the reach and the ZOINKS ability of spinning the thing to form a crude shield.

RGM-79G GM Command wrote:
Technically though, about Freedom's head and the Zaku taking out the head, the PS being down wouldn't matter since the head had a gaping hole, though I don't think the bullets would have the force to directly take it off, it would have destroyed the head.

Well my comment about the Zaku was just to point out exactly how badly breached it's structural integrity was. I could have said some about sneezing taking the head off or something for the same effect the 120mm is notoriously weak, no one has to tell me that.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jan 06, 2011 4:20 pm 
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crashlegacy14 wrote:
well we could argue that almost every attack that landed from the Mjolnir was either involving it's thruster firing, it's ms boosting, or hitting a target that was moving towards it. we could make this argument even if a few cases you couldn't be sure because of the attacker and attacked where rarely in the same frame. Honestly as far as I care the animation showed neither weapon being all that much more effective then the other. which would I have rather had on my MS? the Mjolnir due to the reach and the ZOINKS ability of spinning the thing to form a crude shield.


Very true, aside from beam weapons (And somehow the knives, though more in Destiny.) melee weapons were never really shown in use purely through "normal" means, they tended to have some kind of thruster pushing them every time.

crashlegacy14 wrote:
Well my comment about the Zaku was just to point out exactly how badly breached it's structural integrity was. I could have said some about sneezing taking the head off or something for the same effect the 120mm is notoriously weak, no one has to tell me that.


Oh I wasn't saying it was weak, though it did have lower penetration than every other OYW machine gun as I recall, I just meant that the bullets aren't impacting across a large enough area to cause that, so it wouldn't knock the head off since the bullet's force is impacting in to small of an area.

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 Post Posted: Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:51 am 
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I don't think that the heat-based zeon weapons would be possible and would most likely either melt of warp on impact. The anti ship swords from CE dont really apply here, but they are equally implausible. On the other hand GN blades, with no heating elements, and being made of E-carbon coated in GN particles could have practical applications.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 2:39 pm 
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The more advanced version of GN Blades from AD do have heating elements though, specifically the ones with the green color (made from the same material as GN Condensers are made from) release huge amount of heat in order to help assist in damage. They can start melting/weaken enemy armor even as the blades edge close to the contact point according to the HG Trans-Am Raiser manual if I recall correctly.


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Red Zeta wrote:
I don't think that the heat-based zeon weapons would be possible and would most likely either melt of warp on impact. The anti ship swords from CE dont really apply here, but they are equally implausible. On the other hand GN blades, with no heating elements, and being made of E-carbon coated in GN particles could have practical applications.


This is more of a metallurgy problem. the various heat weapons used by Zeon could only be even remotely effective if they could be heated to a point notably beyond the melting point of metals used for armor plating while still remaining hard edged solids themselves. this isn't impossible, hell I might even be possible with today's technology I mean there are commercially available "hot knives" for use with cutting foam, wax, and such.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 4:40 pm 
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Having done some reenactment as a landsknecht for a few years, I can testify that sometimes a giant sword is a good thing to have. In terms of MS or other giant robots swinging them, yeah there is a feasible utility involved.

1. Force of Impact
This is a characteristic of all swords, the focusing of the wielder's strength and momentum onto the target through the edge or point. A Mobile Suit swinging a sword and striking another with it would land a blow with a lot of focused force behind it. A MS with strong enough servos and hydraulics could brute-force-penetrate armor and damage internal systems. At the very least it could put surface damage into the armor section hit that a second or third hit might exploit. The spreading impact of the blow might jar loose enemy internals anyway, or at the very least loosen all the target pilot's fillings and test his seat belt. :D

2. Aim for the Gaps
Of course, instead of smacking the enemy MS where the armor is, our sword-swinging hero can follow the example of many historical warriors, and aim for where it's not located. This also assumes some practice time and a physical OS capable of some fine physical targeting, but it is possible to have the giant sword strike a less-protected or unprotected system, like a limb joint or servo, a manipulator, the thruster backpack, or the cockpit. This may not result in an automatic win (except for the cockpit, ewww) but the enemy MS will be critically damaged and its pilot will probably lose his fighting spirit.

3. Forcing the Decision
If our sword-swinging hero chooses to engage an enemy with the giant sword instead of a ranged weapon, he immediately forces his targeted enemy who is aware of him to react to his advance. (Unaware enemies get blind-sided for maximum impact, ouch! :o ) Make no mistake, whether Viking shield-wall, landsknecht push of pikes, or MS scrum, the big guy with the big sword cannot be ignored by his chosen target. As our hero rushes towards his foe, said foe has to choose to:
1. Shoot at him with a ranged weapon and do enough damage to change our hero's attack vector or blow him up before he can take a swing/lunge in a thrust.
2. Ready a defensive weapon (shield) and parry the blow, while retaliating with a ranged or melee weapon.
3. Ready his own melee weapon and meet the hero blade-to-blade.
4. Hit reverse thrust and get out of the way of the scary dude bringing max ginsu action.
5. Scream like a loli and grab the ejection lever, choosing survival over shame.
And he'd better decide on one of those options quickly, before our hero gets to him! Standing there like an idiot overwhelmed by the hero's fighting spirit only ensures the attack ending in a really cool finishing move and pose by the hero's MS. Note that option 4 is a win for the hero, because his foe has retreated out of position, allowing him to take the initiative and press the attack, or ignore the fleeing former opponent in favor of doing something that will really hurt the other side...or maybe have a passionate argument with his lover-on-the-enemy-side. (Which demoralizes the heck out of everybody! :D ) There is very little documentary evidence in mecha shows to support option 5, although it is there! Presumably even the lowliest mecha-grunt has too much honor for it, or it is righteously condemned to oblivion by history.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 7:47 pm 
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The problem with your five scenarios, Zeonista, is that ranged weapons are simply better than melee weapons. Nine times out of ten, option one is going to be the appropriate response, and the gunner is going to beat out the swordsman. This is true even in Gundam, where melee combat seems to be the playground of ace pilots rather than anything like a standard tactic. Only aces are good enough to reliably survive enemy fire in order to make it into melee range and then reliably defeat opponents once they're there. A strategy built around the assumption that your guy is simply more skilled than the other guy and can win that way is a poor strategy.

There's also the fact that (again, aces excepted) melee combat seems to be remarkably final in Gundam. It's not uncommon for pilots to take shots at each other for a while and then both of them go home none the worse for wear but for their expended propellant. Once you enter melee combat, however, it becomes much more difficult to disengage without one combatant or the other being destroyed. This is not a position that you want to be in unless you can be assured that you're going to come out on top... which means that rank-and-file soldiers, for the most part, are always going to prefer avoiding melee combat when possible.

Really, it seems to me that MS melee weaponry are primarily intended for use against non-MS targets. A heathawk or a beam saber is a good way to kill a tank or a battleship after you've already closed range enough to avoid their defensive fire -- and it doesn't require you to use any of your precious ammunition to land the coup de grace. The ultimate example of this would be the Tieren's "carbon blade" from Gundam 00. Nothing so fancy as a sword, it doesn't even qualify as a proper axe; it's somewhere between a machete and a meat cleaver, used purely for putting down an otherwise helpless enemy without expending ammo that would be more useful against someone still capable of fighting back.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 8:48 pm 
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Brave Fencer Kirby wrote:
The problem with your five scenarios, Zeonista, is that ranged weapons are simply better than melee weapons. Nine times out of ten, option one is going to be the appropriate response, and the gunner is going to beat out the swordsman.


And yet you choose for the hero's opponent to stand his ground and fire, doing him the honor of acknowledging the threat, instead of just flying or running away from the implied non-threat of a sword. (I am not being sarcastic or ironic, words like "honor" have meaning in anime.) You are also presuming the hero's chosen opponent will actually land critically damaging shots as well, which may or may not happen. Anxiety or haste may skew the aim, the targeting computer may lag, the weapon may pull a Murphy and run out of ammo, the hero may be leading with his shield, or be quite agile! So he manages to evade those damaging shots, and is now within striking distance. So where's the claimed 90% victory now?

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There's also the fact that (again, aces excepted) melee combat seems to be remarkably final in Gundam.


Exactly! That is why I bothered to make such a point of #3. Our hero (who has read his Musashi) fully intends to cut down his enemy, and the giant sword indicates it will not be a "lucky shot" that does it either. His opponent is facing life-or-death combat in the most basic form, and none of the tricks of the futuristic battlefield can aid him. Suddenly all the options have dwindled to a samurai at at Sekigahara: shoot, evade/parry and shoot/strike, counter-strike, or flee. The hero is getting closer every second...

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This is not a position that you want to be in unless you can be assured that you're going to come out on top... which means that rank-and-file soldiers, for the most part, are always going to prefer avoiding melee combat when possible.


That does seem to be the case, more than not, eh? However, Shiro beats a Zaku with a Ball in close combat, and Keith manages to slash the Dom that just blinded him. So even a ranker can strike his foe down, and rise to greatness, if he doesn't let the enemy ace defeat his fighting spirit.

Quote:
Really, it seems to me that MS melee weaponry are primarily intended for use against non-MS targets. A heathawk or a beam saber is a good way to kill a tank or a battleship after you've already closed range enough to avoid their defensive fire -- and it doesn't require you to use any of your precious ammunition to land the coup de grace.


But, all those demolished tanks and ships usually chose option 1, which you earlier touted as nearly infallible when it involved opposed mecha suits. In fact, scoring a sword kill against a warship is an even greater victory, measured against the massed fire of its anti-mecha gunnery!

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 9:45 pm 
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1.) But all those are mere assumptions with the chances of so many things happening being slim to none. So considering we CAN'T rely on such things, we can only go with what common sense dictates. After all, there's a reason people comment on bringing a knife to a gun battle.

Only THE best and skilled people could do so and hope to come out on top, which would not work well when you have to supply an entire army where a majority would NOT fit such a mold.

It's why, a majority of the time, even with higher performance than other MS, melee-oriented MS never really reach full mass production unless they have a decent amount of other attributes to back it up (like the Dreissen) and/or depending on the situation, and even then, they probably won't remain top dog for very long.

After all, the Gouf was a mass production MS, but look at how quickly it got supplanted by the Dom, which is a mid to long-range MS as opposed to the melee-oriented Gouf. Or how the Gyan was easily passed over for the Gelgoog, and other future MS like the R-Jarja, Gyan Kai, and such were only on paper or only had a prototype(s) made, but nothing more.

And just look at the animation itself. How often do melee-oriented MS stay around outside the hands of a main character(s) (ie. Justice and Infinite Justice) or the enemy of the week (which is usually, again, an ace pilot, like Ramba Ral with the Gouf)? Never very long.



2.) And the person doing the shooting won't simply be standing/floating there idly shooting like a fixed gun emplacement either unless they're stupid (or a typical SEED/SEED Destiny grunt XP lol). They will be strafing around, moving back, circling around, and so on, giving him PLENTY of opportunities to hit the opponent, thus KEEPING the distance between them, so the amount of ground covered between them isn't as much as one may think.


3A.) Shiro did NOT beat the Zaku RD-4. It was a draw as neither survived, and only because Shiro was innovative in using the Ball K, but even then, he BARELY made it out alive.

3B.) Keith was not 100% blinded.

All he lost was the main camera in the Zaku II's head. You can't forget that MS have cameras all over the body, so just losing the head/main camera does not equal blindness. It's not like Keith just got a lucky shot, but he could still actually see through the other cameras on the Zaku II's body.

You also can't forget that Adamsky was stunned because he crashed full frontal into a rock trying to stab Keith's Zaku II in his ambush, which left him completely vulnerable and with his guard down, making him a sitting duck for Keith anyway (by the time he recovered to look up, the heat hawk was already coming down on his head).

Pretty much any pilot could take down an experienced or ace pilot in such a situation.


4.) And you also can't forget that they're TANKS (under gravity) and SHIPS...hardly as fast and mobile as Mobile Suits. They virtually ARE like fixed gun emplacements in battle.

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 Post Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2011 11:18 pm 
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HalfDemonInuyasha wrote:
1.) But all those are mere assumptions with the chances of so many things happening being slim to none. So considering we CAN'T rely on such things, we can only go with what common sense dictates. After all, there's a reason people comment on bringing a knife to a gun battle.

Only THE best and skilled people could do so and hope to come out on top, which would not work well when you have to supply an entire army where a majority would NOT fit such a mold.

It's why, a majority of the time, even with higher performance than other MS, melee-oriented MS never really reach full mass production unless they have a decent amount of other attributes to back it up (like the Dreissen) and/or depending on the situation, and even then, they probably won't remain top dog for very long.


That's well-argued, but the Crossbone Vanguard would beg to differ with you. A mecha pilot armed and trained for close combat, with the confidence require to close with the enemy, will like as not succeed, and win. That's why I mentioned the aforementioned mecha hero having read his Musashi. The famous swordsman states that in combat the swordsman must quckly close with his foe and strike, before the foe can make a countermove.

Quote:
After all, the Gouf was a mass production MS, but look at how quickly it got supplanted by the Dom, which is a mid to long-range MS as opposed to the melee-oriented Gouf. Or how the Gyan was easily passed over for the Gelgoog, and other future MS like the R-Jarja, Gyan Kai, and such were only on paper or only had a prototype(s) made, but nothing more.

And yet the close-combat designs keep coming. It would seem they have a recognizable and useful purpose, ne? The giant gun is well and good, but the giant sword, ah, therein lies victory! The AU universes have gone even further with this than the Universal Century. Two of the five Wing protagonist Gundams, the Frost brothers' Gundams, CE (especially ZAFT and a certain Junk Guild operator), Setsuna in 00...

The will to win with a giant sword is great in Gundam, especially with a large dose of fighting spirit, can't forget the fighting spirit, otherwise it's uselss. Having played at it a bit as a Renaissance weekend warriorr, I have grasped at the understanding of combat variables which exist outside the parameters of statistics and design specs, and have much to deal with the focused desire to see one's enemy broken on the ground, with the piece of steel in one's sweat-slick hands.It sounds rather quaint & absurd in this current age of Predator drones, but the US Armed Forces, who currently only use swords for parades, spend a lot of time trying to put those unquantifiable variables into their soldiers. Mecha anime just wraps those non-quantifiable variables around the picture of an 18-meter giant robot.

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And just look at the animation itself. How often do melee-oriented MS stay around outside the hands of a main character(s) (ie. Justice and Infinite Justice) or the enemy of the week (which is usually, again, an ace pilot, like Ramba Ral with the Gouf)? Never very long.


Well, that's the point, so to speak. Heroes and villains, the "men of destiny" of song, can summon the fighting spirit and will to win to decide the fate of empires in direct combat. Everybody else will be swept along...or away. Probably something the hypothetical hero's opponent may have in the back of his mind as he sees The White Death/The Red Comet/The Big Cheese coming straight for him.

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2.) And the person doing the shooting won't simply be standing/floating there idly shooting like a fixed gun emplacement either unless they're stupid (or a typical SEED/SEED Destiny grunt XP lol). They will be strafing around, moving back, circling around, and so on, giving him PLENTY of opportunities to hit the opponent, thus KEEPING the distance between them, so the amount of ground covered between them isn't as much as one may think.

The mecha hero's foe would naturally like to keep as much distance as possible between himself and that 8-meter can opener the heroic mecha suit is brandishing like a twig. However, I stated that the hero forces his opponent of whatever rank to react to his attack upon becoming aware of him. If that's from 5,000 meters, awesome for the foe, but what if it's 500 meters, or 50? (And don't sneer at the 50-meter mark, that's about Packard Norris's usual engagement range during his last battle.) Ready or not, here comes the hero, aiming to cut down his opponent with a single blow if possible!

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3A.) Shiro did NOT beat the Zaku RD-4. It was a draw as neither survived, and only because Shiro was innovative in using the Ball K, but even then, he BARELY made it out alive.
3B.) Keith was not 100% blinded.
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Not to quibble, but Shiro defeated a modded Zaku via a Ball in close combat, and lived to chat up the Zaku's pilot. That's a victory to me! And so Keith was using his secondary sensors instead of his primary mono-eye, so what, he was at a disadvantage, and still cut down his foe. The strength of desperation will do when the strength of courage is lacking. :) Neither of them were "anybody" after that, they had passed the test, and had acquired the potential to be mecha heroes, or at least be the hero's most fortunate sidekick.

_________________
Gundam Unicorn I wear my loyalty on my Sleeve.

I am Ral-san, enthusiast of Zeon MS, maker of Zeon gunpla, encouraging mentor of younger fans, and an admirer of mature beauty.


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