Question about Strike Freedom?

[Dark Duel]

There's never been even the slightest indication of a direct neural interface of any kind anywhere in any Cosmic Era material AFAIK, so I would imagine it's the former.

[Deathonator]

There's never been even the slightest indication of a direct neural interface of any kind anywhere in any Cosmic Era material AFAIK, so I would imagine it's the former.

Odd, are you sure...? Recall a thread in a round about fashion confirming that the Providence ZAKU's manual says that there is a direct neural interface for controlling DRAGOON's, at the very least it's version...the more advanced one.

[DeltasTaii]

I can come up with a thread where someone claims someone else did. But I'm pretty sure that's a load, since what I can find only suggests Providence ZAKU's DRAGOON system is an improvement of Chaos', which is itself already developed from Strike Freedom's anyways. The only model for it is a B-Club conversion.

That whole line about "improved quantum communication network" isn't very reliable. This topic has already contradicted the MAHQ profile a couple times. However, where it actually seems to come from is Legend's info.

ドラグーン・システム
本機の主兵装。EQFU-5X機動兵装ポッドを経て量子インターフェイスにも改良が加えられており、以前の物より比較的容易に運用が可能となっている。

Online translator's make a complete ass out of that which makes it unclear whether they improved the interface to the quantum communication system or the improvement is a quantum interface or something.

[Deathonator]

So then, how in the hell are DRAGOON's controlled? Or is this just another unexpanded upon nugget in a sea of nuggets when it comes to technical info? Probably should have expected that by now.

[DoubleZero]

Since we're in the topic about SF and its DRAGOONs, could someone confirm this:

The DRAGOON system is Strike Freedom's newest feature and also its most powerful weapon. Two DRAGOON pods are stored on each of its wings, each with their own high-output beam cannon. The Strike Freedom's DRAGOONs do not require pilots with a high degree of spatial awareness to effectively control them due to a quantum computer network built into the system. Kira prefers to use the DRAGOONs to attack enemy units/ships from long-range and often in conjunction with all the other weapons. It can also be used in group formations for multiple barrages. Two of them can actually combine to form a beam spear or Multi-Phase Cannon to pierce through mobile suits and ships, although this has never been seen in the anime.

This is from SF's Gundam wiki page.

[toysdream]

I don't think any of us wrote that, so we can't tell you what source they used, if any. Why don't you ask them?

-- Mark

[DoubleZero]

I don't think any of us wrote that, so we can't tell you what source they used, if any. Why don't you ask them?

-- Mark

I don't have an account for Gundam wiki, but I did find the guy.

[Deathonator]

I'll pose my question in another way then, why is it that seemingly the entire community assumes that DRAGOON's are(more or less) automated? Seems as though the only actual description pertaining to that specific bit comes from the Pergrande and it outright credits a direct neural interface; now of course this isn't exactly like the others but that seems to be due more to the whole three pilots thing rather then the afore mentioned connection to the pilots brain.

[Geoxile]

Since we're in the topic about SF and its DRAGOONs, could someone confirm this:

The DRAGOON system is Strike Freedom's newest feature and also its most powerful weapon. Two DRAGOON pods are stored on each of its wings, each with their own high-output beam cannon. The Strike Freedom's DRAGOONs do not require pilots with a high degree of spatial awareness to effectively control them due to a quantum computer network built into the system. Kira prefers to use the DRAGOONs to attack enemy units/ships from long-range and often in conjunction with all the other weapons. It can also be used in group formations for multiple barrages. Two of them can actually combine to form a beam spear or Multi-Phase Cannon to pierce through mobile suits and ships, although this has never been seen in the anime.

This is from SF's Gundam wiki page.

Sounds like terrible fan BS to me. The barrels aren't even adjacent or look to be able to combine or the DRAGOONs themselves link up. Otherwise it'd be the same output and they should technically be able to do it alone.

Edit: Also the DRAGOONS' beams have been showing piercing MS and ships anyway...lol
Seems like an unnecessary redundancy.

[Deathonator]

Sorry to bump this , but it seemed better then making a new topic?

Anyway, trolling around the internet in my boredom and according to the Gundam Wiki now the SF's DRAGOON's are capable of generating a Beam Saber at the tip... maybe they sourced it from the new RG, I think the Ja. wiki mentions it too? Also apparently the Multi-Targeting System apparently requires High Spatial awareness now, more info from the RG perhaps?

[Zerosystem]

It sounds just like the fan-written stuff above, except it no longer needs two to form into a beam tipped penetrator. It seems that some people really want to give the Legend's "beam spike" DRAGOONs to the SF?

Also, it is stated that the quantum communication system in the Legend and SF (and presumably the Chaos as well) do not require high spatial awareness for DRAGOON use.. even if Rey is capable, and if Kira had a newtype "flash".

[Deathonator]

Mm. The Spatial Awareness question wasn't in reference to the DRAGOONs though. Oh, and apparently the Japanese Wiki entry IS sourced, it came from the SEED Destiny MS Encyclopedia apparently.

[balofo]

Sorry to bump this , but it seemed better then making a new topic?

Anyway, trolling around the internet in my boredom and according to the Gundam Wiki now the SF's DRAGOON's are capable of generating a Beam Saber at the tip... maybe they sourced it from the new RG, I think the Ja. wiki mentions it too? Also apparently the Multi-Targeting System apparently requires High Spatial awareness now, more info from the RG perhaps?

Both pieces of info are correct and the Multi Lockon System requiring High Spatial awareness new bit comes from the RG manual. It mentions only a small % of the coordinators like Kira can make use of it.

Lineart for the Beam blade mode of the Super DRAGOONs

http://imgur.com/L4jEjMK

[DoubleZero]

Interesting tidbit about the SF's Dragoons generating beam blades.

Multi Lockon System requiring High Spatial awareness new bit comes from the RG manual. It mentions only a small % of the coordinators like Kira can make use of it.

Is that due to the inclusion of Dragoons on the Full Burst? Athrun, with the Meteor, had no problem using the Multi-Lock to shoot down dozens of MS. Or does that mean Athrun has High Spatial Awareness?

[toysdream]

Since I've been plowing through Seed Destiny info recently, I think I'll join in the gravedigging and help resurrect this long-moribund thread.

I have to say that the passage of time, and multiple book and model kit releases, have clarified the mysteries of the Strike Freedom and the other Seed Destiny mecha not at all. The Japanese wikipedia pages are actually pretty useful for this, since - unlike English-language websites - they provide sources for all their info and frankly acknowledge the contradictions between them, instead of trying to merge all these different claims into a single "official" explanation. When you see all the rival claims laid out side by side, it really does seem completely chaotic.

With that in mind, here are a few things that occur to me. I'm trying to make the simplest possible assumptions here, based on what we see in the animation and the basic specs.


Third Stage: Some of the recent books have claimed that the Destiny and Legend are actually part of a "Third Stage" series, more advanced than the "Second Stage" Gundams from the beginning of the show, and distinguished by Junius Treaty-violating features like nuclear-powered Hyper Deuterion engines and Mirage Colloid-based afterimage gimmicks. Supposedly, they retained the Second Stage "S" suffix for the sake of secrecy.

Another machine that's sometimes (less frequently) associated with the Third Stage series is the DOM Trooper. The orthodox explanation given by the kit manual and the Seed Destiny MSV series is that the DOM Trooper was another rival candidate for ZAFT's "New Millenium" series, developed alongside the ZAKU and GOUF and then abandoned with the adoption of the Junius Treaty. This explanation seems incompatible with the "Third Stage" hypothesis, since the Second Stage machines were created after the Junius Treaty. Nonetheless, as the kit manual acknowledges, the DOM Trooper's "T" suffix does seem like it should stand for "Third Stage".

To me, the idea that the DOM Trooper is actually a Third Stage design makes a lot of sense. Its model number doesn't follow the four-digit "New Millennium" format used by the ZAKU and GOUF series, and the fact that its "Screaming Nimbus" is a wacky Junius Treaty-violating gimmick is also reminiscent of the Destiny's pointless afterimages. For all we know, it could even be nuclear-powered; Terminal clearly doesn't follow the Junius Treaty, after all.


Hyper Deuterion: Speaking of nuclear power, what's up with the newfangled Hyper Deuterion system? The kit manuals and publications all insist that it's a hybrid of the deuterion beam energy supply system and nuclear power, and this is borne out by the GUNDAM operating startup screen in the Destiny and Legend. And yet the Destiny does run out of power during the Orb battle, which never happens to the Freedom and Justice.

I guess it would be easier to speculate about this if we had any idea how the deuterion beam worked in the first place. Still, it seems clear that the Hyper Deuterion system has something to do with nuclear power, even if it doesn't really work.


Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice: As for the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice, the Japanese sources have proposed every conceivable power source - fission reactor with Neutron Jammer Canceler, laser-ignited fusion (like the Archangel's engines), Hyper Deuterion, etc. That last one seems to be the current consensus, but it makes no sense to me at all. The Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice retain the original "A" suffix and nuclear-themed OS startup screen, and they aren't based aboard a ship like the Minerva that actually has a deuterion beam system. Surely the simplest explanation is that, like the original Freedom and Justice, they're simply nuclear-powered.

It's also interesting to look at the model numbers of these Gundams' weapons. In most cases, they're actually lower than those of the Second Stage series. The Strike Freedom has EQFU-3X Super DRAGOONs with MA-80V beam cannons, versus the Chaos's EQFU-5X mobile weapon pods and MA-81R beam cannons. The Infinite Justice has MA-6J Hyper Fortis beam cannons and RQM55 Shining Edge beam boomerangs, versus the Saviour's MA-7B Super Fortis beam cannons and the Sword Impulse's RQM60 Flash Edge. The Strike Freedom has MX2200 beam shields, rather than the MX2351 Solidus Fulgor used by the Destiny, Legend, and DOM Trooper. Basically, this all seems to be older equipment than that used in the Second Stage series.

The obvious explanation, I think, is that the Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice were under development before the Junius Treaty and were abandoned when the treaty banned the use of nuclear power. Whatever other upgrades Terminal subsequently made - shiny joints, Voiture Lumiere propulsion, etc - they evidently didn't replace the weapons.


DRAGOONs: The publications and kit manuals are constantly claiming that, after the original Seed series, the DRAGOON technology has been refined to the point where you don't need exceptional powers of "spatial awareness" to use them. And yet, aside from Sting Oakley, the only people we ever see using them are people we already know to have these powers.

The first person to whom Dullindal offers the Legend Gundam, of course, is Athrun Zala. Dullindal says that he thinks Athrun will be able to handle its DRAGOON system, and presumably he would know, but we never see it put to the test...

-- Mark

[AmuroNT1]

Hyper Deuterion: Speaking of nuclear power, what's up with the newfangled Hyper Deuterion system? The kit manuals and publications all insist that it's a hybrid of the deuterion beam energy supply system and nuclear power, and this is borne out by the GUNDAM operating startup screen in the Destiny and Legend. And yet the Destiny does run out of power during the Orb battle, which never happens to the Freedom and Justice.

I thought the staff acknowledged Destiny running out of power as a continuity error and subsequently removed that scene from the special editions? But then I also heard that they RESTORED the scene for the recent HD Remaster, so who knows.

Also, the issue with the weapon model numbers is pretty interesting; I remember noticing it myself a few years back because I compiled all the weapon data while writing up a Seed sequel role-play. It really does suggest that the S-F and I-J were made first.

But that raises another question I've had for ages: IIRC, one of the official stories they've given us for Strike Freedom's development was that ZAFT built most of it, then Terminal agents stole it and modified it into its familiar form in order to better suit Kira's fighting style. Is that story still in play or have they thrown it out too?

[balofo]

Isn't the Deuterion Beam system officially based on the Regenerate's ability to use Genesis Alpha as propulsion? As is the part swapping of the Impulse?

[toysdream]

Yeah, they put the power-down sequence back into the Remaster version. So the Destiny still sucks.

One thing that's mentioned in the Japanese wikipedia pages is that the introduction of the Neutron Stampeder, which induces runaway fission reactions, actually makes any nuclear weapons or nuclear-powered machines inherently vulnerable to forced self-destruction. So whether or not the Junius Treaty is still in effect, there's a technological reason not to use fission power. Apparently the staff mentioned this in a book interview, noting that piloting the Strike Freedom is thus inherently dangerous, but it gives us another reason why the Hyper Deuterion system might be designed as something other than true nuclear power.

As for the Strike Freedom's origins, we've had a whole bunch of these, and I think we can pick and choose the option that seems least implausible. One of the claim is that Terminal simply obtained the design data for these machines, and subsequently refined them for their intended pilots. But since the machines are built using actual ZAFT weapons - and obsolete ones at that - I think it might make more sense if Terminal actually obtained the unfinished machines.


Regarding a connection between Genesis Alpha's lightcraft propulsion and the deuterion beam system... hm, maybe; I should go look that up. I don't think the Regenerate was ever meant to receive power from Genesis Alpha, though, and after all it doesn't need to.

-- Mark

[balofo]

The Regenerate link in on the MG manual. Funny it also mentions that the Silhouettes development had ORB coordinator help and that the Impulse like the Regenerate and Testament can make use of all the Striker Packs including the Akatsuki ones and even the rare Noir Striker.

[AmuroNT1]

Ah yeah, the section of the MG Force Impulse manual discussing the head and torso mentions the Regenerate. However, that's way too big a wall of text for me to handle, so I'll just link it here for smarter folk to decipher.

http://dalong.net/review/mg/m109/p/m109_mb0007.JPG