More vintage MS specs nerdery ahoy!
In previous threads like this one, we've pondered the question of how much thrust all those Dom and Gelgoog variants have, and how much is contributed by all those small thrusters tucked into their skirts and legs. The first Zeon mobile suit to have these kinds of extra thrusters was the MS-06R-1 Zaku II, and as I noted in that previous thread, the old and new specs lend themselves to a set of thruster specs along these lines:
MS-06R-1A: 21,800 kg x 2 (backpack), 3,100 kg x 2 (feet), 4,500 kg x 6 (legs)
If we tally only the backpack and foot thrusters, as is done for all the Gundam 0083 specs, we end up with the official total of 49,800 kg. The rating for the foot thrusters matches that of the MS-06F2; the backpack thrusters seem to match those of the original Dom; the backpack and leg thruster specs are exactly one tenth of those given in the old MSV kit manuals; the grand total happens to equal the official figure for the mobile suit's full weight.
So what about the Dom and Gelgoog series? Are their skirt and leg thrusters bigger or smaller?
I actually went through and measured the thrusters on a bunch of toy and model versions. More on that in a minute! In the meantime, enjoy this gallery of rear views from kit manuals, MSV-R profiles, and MG kit photography - the latter swiped, with apologies, from Dalong.net and scaled to the proper relative proportions.
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... usters.jpg
From the MSV-R series. The 06R-1A leg thrusters are a bit bigger than those of the MS-06G, which are spec'd at 3,500 kg apiece.
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... usters.jpg
From the BEE-CRAFT cutaways included in the Master Grade kit manuals. The 06R-1A leg thrusters look comparable to the Dom's skirt thrusters.
http://www.ultimatemark.com/gundam/imag ... usters.jpg
From Dalong.net's photos. The Zakus and Gelgoog are the "Ver.2.0" types; in this revision, they gave the Gelgoog five skirt thrusters instead of three.
During the aforementioned measuring binge, I concluded that these various thruster nozzles pretty much break down into three sizes - large, medium, and small. (Large ones are about 7mm long and 8.5mm in diameter at 1/144 scale, or 9mm long and 12.5mm in diameter in 1/100. You get the idea.) Based on the MG and HG-UC kits, the Zeonography toys, etc, this seems to be the general consensus on the nozzle sizes...
MS-06R-1A Zaku II: Leg thrusters are Large (HG-UC Geara Zulu) or Medium (MG Ver.1.0 and Zeonography).
MS-06R-2 Zaku II: Leg thrusters are Large (Zeonography).
MS-09 Dom: Skirt thrusters are Large. Leg thrusters consist of one Large and two Small (HG-UC and Zeonography) or one Medium and two Small (MG).
YMS-09 Prototype Dom: Leg thruster is one Large (Zeonography).
MS-14 Gelgoog: Skirt thrusters are three Large (HG-UC) or one Large and two Medium (MG Ver.1.0 and Zeonography). Leg thrusters are three Medium (HG-UC and Zeonography) or one Medium and two Small (MG Ver.1.0, which recycles the same parts from the MG Dom).
Overall, then, the consensus seems to be that the Dom has three Large thrusters in its skirt, and a cluster of one Large and two Small in each leg. The Gelgoog varies a lot, but the simplest interpretation would be three Large thrusters in the skirt and three Medium ones in each leg.
Of course, the simplest option of all would be to assume that all the skirt and leg thrusters on a given machine are roughly equal, and that it has either nine or eleven of the same type. But in the case of the MS-09G Dowadge, at least, the official specs indicate that the skirt thrusters are a bit more powerful than the leg ones.
-- Mark
Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
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Gelgoog Jager
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Re: Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
I personally found dissapointing that ZZ disregards many of the MS thrusters, particularly the calf thrusters which sometimes are simply disregarded as verniers. For example the Zssa:
Zssa Manual
As you can observe, the calf thrusters receive the same classification as the circular verniers on the side of the legs and backpack. Some of the backapck thrusters receive the same classification.
As mentioned in other threads, the Zssa is supposed to be an assault type MS, much like the Kampfer. However its stats give it a somewhat low performance ratio since it considers that many of its thrusters are simply verniers. Even with the backpack it's performance remains on a similar range as the Nemo and other mass produced machines form the Gryps War, depsite the claim that said backapck actually allowed the Zssa to fly on the atmosphere in order to conduct aerial bombardments.
Another example is the Dreissen, which also has calf thrusters, which can be observed on the HGUC kit. However the official stats only consider the backpack and outer skirt thusters along 3 more which I can't identify. Upon close inspection the Dreissen has 4 thrusters on each calf in addition to the ones on the foot and the 6 sets of 3 small thrusters distributed on the shoulder armor.
We can conclude that these machines should actually be a lot faster than what we have been led to believe,
The saddest part is that Unicorn is considering these incomplete stats for their incarnations of these ZZ-era MS. If you add the thrusters mentioned on Mahq's profile you will get 107,800, the same as on the magazine scan for the Sleeves' version of the Dreissen.
Zssa Manual
As you can observe, the calf thrusters receive the same classification as the circular verniers on the side of the legs and backpack. Some of the backapck thrusters receive the same classification.
As mentioned in other threads, the Zssa is supposed to be an assault type MS, much like the Kampfer. However its stats give it a somewhat low performance ratio since it considers that many of its thrusters are simply verniers. Even with the backpack it's performance remains on a similar range as the Nemo and other mass produced machines form the Gryps War, depsite the claim that said backapck actually allowed the Zssa to fly on the atmosphere in order to conduct aerial bombardments.
Another example is the Dreissen, which also has calf thrusters, which can be observed on the HGUC kit. However the official stats only consider the backpack and outer skirt thusters along 3 more which I can't identify. Upon close inspection the Dreissen has 4 thrusters on each calf in addition to the ones on the foot and the 6 sets of 3 small thrusters distributed on the shoulder armor.
We can conclude that these machines should actually be a lot faster than what we have been led to believe,
The saddest part is that Unicorn is considering these incomplete stats for their incarnations of these ZZ-era MS. If you add the thrusters mentioned on Mahq's profile you will get 107,800, the same as on the magazine scan for the Sleeves' version of the Dreissen.
Re: Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
The three extra thrusters on the Dreissen are in its tri-blades, so the Unicorn version would actually lose thrust when the bazooka and heat saber mounts are installed.
Still, the ZZ specs seem broadly accurate to me - at least the totals, if not their precise distribution. The upshot would be that mobile suits got a lot lighter after the One Year War, but their total thrust stayed about the same, thus the net performance improvement.
-- Mark
Still, the ZZ specs seem broadly accurate to me - at least the totals, if not their precise distribution. The upshot would be that mobile suits got a lot lighter after the One Year War, but their total thrust stayed about the same, thus the net performance improvement.
-- Mark
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Gelgoog Jager
- Posts: 1640
- Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2006 9:09 pm
Re: Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
I made a quick list with the total thrust of most known Axis/First Neo Zeon MS:
Leaving aside the Capule, which I'm practically sure must be a typo for 68,000 (which unfortunately Unicorn copy-pasted), most of these machines seem to be within the 60,000-100,000 range. The exceptions would be the Zssa without Booster on the low end, and on the high end we have the Dreissen, Hamma Hamma, Zssa with booster and the Gallus and Zaku III series. However some doesn't sound quite right:
The thrust of the booster-less Zssa seems to low, even for its low weight, for a unit supposedly specialized in hit and run tactics. On the other hand, while its booster-equipped thrust do is on the high end, it would seem low for a unit that is meant to be capable of flying in the atmosphere while fully loaded with missiles. The Bawoo and Gaza E also seem a bit short for units meant to be also capable of flying, particularly the later which should supposedly be capable of doing so while carrying another MS on top of it.
The Hamma Hamma do is supposed to have an absurd amount of thrust to compensate its large size so I suppose that one is okay. Its interesting to see that the Gallus series has such high thrust, along with the Dreissen and Zaku III. In the case of the later two, maybe since they are based on older machines they were designed that way to compensate for the lack of more specialized weapons or equipment.
Finally there's the Qubeley which only has an average amount of thrust despite usually being depicted as an extremely mobile unit.
Code: Select all
AMX-003 79200
AMX-004 61600
AMX-004G 61600
AMX-006 98200
AMX-007 60020
AMX-008 92280
AMX-009 107800
AMX-011 172600
AMX-011S 211500
AMX-014 87300
AMX-015 92400
AMX-101 121900
AMX-101K 121900
AMX-102 34600
AMX-102+B 120400
AMX-103 258200
AMX-104 72200
AMX-107 95100
AMX-109 6800
AMX-117L/R 76400
The thrust of the booster-less Zssa seems to low, even for its low weight, for a unit supposedly specialized in hit and run tactics. On the other hand, while its booster-equipped thrust do is on the high end, it would seem low for a unit that is meant to be capable of flying in the atmosphere while fully loaded with missiles. The Bawoo and Gaza E also seem a bit short for units meant to be also capable of flying, particularly the later which should supposedly be capable of doing so while carrying another MS on top of it.
The Hamma Hamma do is supposed to have an absurd amount of thrust to compensate its large size so I suppose that one is okay. Its interesting to see that the Gallus series has such high thrust, along with the Dreissen and Zaku III. In the case of the later two, maybe since they are based on older machines they were designed that way to compensate for the lack of more specialized weapons or equipment.
Finally there's the Qubeley which only has an average amount of thrust despite usually being depicted as an extremely mobile unit.
Re: Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
This is just a question on my part, but how can you tell a main thruster from a vernier thruster/apogee motor ? Couldn't a vernier be the same size as a regular thruster. For instance the thrusters in the GM Kai rear skirt armor, are those main thrusters or verniers ? For instance I believe the GM has 2x thrusters in its backpack and 4x thrusters in its feet. Does this mean the gm lacks any sort of vernier thrusters, and rely totally on its ambac for moment ?
Re: Return to the Valley of the Skirt Thrusters
The distinction does seem to be pretty arbitrary, and different series appear to follow different rules. In Zeta and Gundam 0080, the foot thrusters aren't included in the specs, while Gundam 0083 always counts them but ignores a bunch of other thrusters (like the skirt and leg thrusters in the Dom and Gelgoog series). Then there are things like the tail thrusters in the Gelgoog Marine and Gelgoog Jaeger, which have never been included in any specs.
As for the rear skirt thrusters you mentioned, these are included in the specs for the RX-78NT1 Alex, where they're rated at 7,000 kg apiece. Similar thrusters are installed in a bunch of the GM variations that appear in Gundam 0083, but they aren't listed in the specs; on the other hand, these specs include the thrusters in the soles of the feet, which isn't the case with the Alex.
It's possible that we could get some guidance on this from things like kit manuals and the published callouts for the Gundam 0083 machines, or even from looking at the animation. But a lot of the time the terms they use are rather vague, like "main vernier thruster".
EDIT: So let's look at the official callouts for the Gundam 0083 machines, as published in MS WARS, the Newtype 100% Collection, etc etc. Anything I didn't mention - foot thrusters and so forth - isn't labeled on the diagrams.
RX-78GP01 Gundam GP01: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (legs), apogee motor x 2 (shoulders)
RX-78GP01Fb Gundam GP01Fb: main thruster x 2 (backpack), boost nozzle x 4 (boosters, legs), reverse thruster x 4 (chest), apogee motor x 19 (shoulders, boosters, skirt armor, pelvis)
RX-78GP02A Gundam GP02A: main thruster x 2 (binders), sub thruster x 2 (binders)
RX-78GP03S Gundam GP03S: main thruster x 2 (backpack), boost nozzle x 2 (binders), apogee motor x 40 (shoulders, backpack, skirt armor, binders, legs, ankles)
AGX-04 Gerbera Tetra: main thruster x 1 (backpack), boost nozzle x 2 (shoulders), sub thruster x 2 (legs), apogee motor x 22 (shoulders, pelvis, legs)
RGM-79C GM Type C: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (butt), apogee motor x 2 (shoulders)
RGM-79N GM Custom: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (butt), apogee motor x 10 (shoulders, backpack, and legs; there appear to be two more unlabeled apogee motors on backpack)
RGC-83 GM Cannon II: main thruster x 1 (butt), sub thruster x 4 (backpack), apogee motor x 8 (shoulders and legs; ; there appear to be two more unlabeled apogee motors on backpack)
MS-06F-2 Zaku II: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (backpack), apogee motor x 6 (legs)
MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II: main thruster x 5 (skirt), sub thruster x 2 (backpack), apogee motor x 4 (shoulders)
MS-14F Gelgoog Marine: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (backpack, tail), apogee motor x 6 (shoulders, skirt, legs)
MS-14Fs Gelgoog Marine: main thruster x 3 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (tail, legs), apogee motor x 8 (shoulders, skirt, legs)
MS-21C Dra-C: main thruster x 4 (backpack, propellant tanks), sub thruster x 3 (backpack)
The most interesting data points here, I think, are the things that get designated as "sub thrusters". These include the small thrusters in the GM's butt; the tail thrusters of the Gelgoog Marine; and the small thrusters on the backpacks of the Zaku II F2, Gelgoog Marine, and GM Cannon II. Some of these are included in the specs, some aren't.
The large nozzle in the GM Cannon II's butt, which isn't listed in the specs, is apparently its main thruster (as in the RX-77D Guncannon).
-- Mark
As for the rear skirt thrusters you mentioned, these are included in the specs for the RX-78NT1 Alex, where they're rated at 7,000 kg apiece. Similar thrusters are installed in a bunch of the GM variations that appear in Gundam 0083, but they aren't listed in the specs; on the other hand, these specs include the thrusters in the soles of the feet, which isn't the case with the Alex.
It's possible that we could get some guidance on this from things like kit manuals and the published callouts for the Gundam 0083 machines, or even from looking at the animation. But a lot of the time the terms they use are rather vague, like "main vernier thruster".
EDIT: So let's look at the official callouts for the Gundam 0083 machines, as published in MS WARS, the Newtype 100% Collection, etc etc. Anything I didn't mention - foot thrusters and so forth - isn't labeled on the diagrams.
RX-78GP01 Gundam GP01: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (legs), apogee motor x 2 (shoulders)
RX-78GP01Fb Gundam GP01Fb: main thruster x 2 (backpack), boost nozzle x 4 (boosters, legs), reverse thruster x 4 (chest), apogee motor x 19 (shoulders, boosters, skirt armor, pelvis)
RX-78GP02A Gundam GP02A: main thruster x 2 (binders), sub thruster x 2 (binders)
RX-78GP03S Gundam GP03S: main thruster x 2 (backpack), boost nozzle x 2 (binders), apogee motor x 40 (shoulders, backpack, skirt armor, binders, legs, ankles)
AGX-04 Gerbera Tetra: main thruster x 1 (backpack), boost nozzle x 2 (shoulders), sub thruster x 2 (legs), apogee motor x 22 (shoulders, pelvis, legs)
RGM-79C GM Type C: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (butt), apogee motor x 2 (shoulders)
RGM-79N GM Custom: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (butt), apogee motor x 10 (shoulders, backpack, and legs; there appear to be two more unlabeled apogee motors on backpack)
RGC-83 GM Cannon II: main thruster x 1 (butt), sub thruster x 4 (backpack), apogee motor x 8 (shoulders and legs; ; there appear to be two more unlabeled apogee motors on backpack)
MS-06F-2 Zaku II: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 2 (backpack), apogee motor x 6 (legs)
MS-09R-2 Rick Dom II: main thruster x 5 (skirt), sub thruster x 2 (backpack), apogee motor x 4 (shoulders)
MS-14F Gelgoog Marine: main thruster x 2 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (backpack, tail), apogee motor x 6 (shoulders, skirt, legs)
MS-14Fs Gelgoog Marine: main thruster x 3 (backpack), sub thruster x 4 (tail, legs), apogee motor x 8 (shoulders, skirt, legs)
MS-21C Dra-C: main thruster x 4 (backpack, propellant tanks), sub thruster x 3 (backpack)
The most interesting data points here, I think, are the things that get designated as "sub thrusters". These include the small thrusters in the GM's butt; the tail thrusters of the Gelgoog Marine; and the small thrusters on the backpacks of the Zaku II F2, Gelgoog Marine, and GM Cannon II. Some of these are included in the specs, some aren't.
The large nozzle in the GM Cannon II's butt, which isn't listed in the specs, is apparently its main thruster (as in the RX-77D Guncannon).
-- Mark