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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:33 pm 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

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Well, when the anime portrays you as such it's hard to lessen their roles. We have Western Eurasians losing whole cities and having countless civilian slaughtered to Janjaweed-wannabes in the Middle East (which is a part of Western Eurasia). While the culprits are the AF troops, the Central Eurasian authority should not have allowed the AF in knowing full well what they are capable of, and since like i said no liberal Western Eurasian would condone such things, the only remaining possibility would be the Russians.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:21 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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The AF had little to do with the Eurasia's problems. The actions of destroy was the actions of Logos. Go to gundam official and look. The AF never invaded or occupied any part of Eurasia. Zaft was fighting Eurasian Gov't troops. Remember that phantom pain is not an official part of the EA.
You are placing too much blame on the AF for the Actions of the Eurasian Gov't. The middle eastern thing was Eurasian. the only AF ship to fight in any part of Eurasia is the Jones. The AF would never name one of there ship the Bonaparte.

Western Eurasia was in Full revolt. !!!!!!


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 Post Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:24 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Destroy

The Destroy Gundam is less of a mobile suit than a mobile gun platform. What this hulking behemoth lacks in mobility, it makes up for with a massive arsenal designed for indiscriminate destruction. The Destroy is also equipped with the same positron reflector shield featured on the Zamza-zah and Gells-ghe, rendering most incoming enemy fire ineffective.

To punish Europe for sympathizing with ZAFT, LOGOS sends the first Destroy unit to Berlin, where it swats aside the ZAFT forces and lays waste to the city and its populace. By the time the Freedom is able to stop the Destroy's rampage, this weapon of mass destruction has singlehandedly razed most of the city to the ground...


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 Post Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:50 am 
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Retconned MSV Ace

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I still think, despite the discussion I've also had with lordyu that at least half, if not more of LOGOS forces, which are in effect PP forces as well, are armed by or associated with the AF. There is no way that their hands can be clean in that situation. Certainly ever since JOSH-A there is little sympathy between them and EF. And the J.P. Jones is the only ship we see, but I would assume (and I know, assuming is not fact) that there would be more than a single ship. The discussion on the name of the ship (Bonaparte) is on the other hand as much an assumption; admittedly it is linked to France, but in the fleet you have both Drakes and Agamemnon -class.

Aside from that, the way LOGOS did things was completely irrational and backward for a hidden organization that had managed to survive centuries. The deployment of the Destroy went a long way to in effect make Western Eurasians victims.

My short point is, it is possible to demonize the AF less, but they cannot be completely separated from the setting because GSD makes no effort to do so. Making a theory to the contrary would be a great idea for a fic, but it can't be demanded from the writer of the fic if s/he doesn't see it that way. *shrugs*

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 Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 12:43 pm 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

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lordyu wrote:
The AF had little to do with the Eurasia's problems. The actions of destroy was the actions of Logos. Go to gundam official and look. The AF never invaded or occupied any part of Eurasia. Zaft was fighting Eurasian Gov't troops. Remember that phantom pain is not an official part of the EA.
You are placing too much blame on the AF for the Actions of the Eurasian Gov't. The middle eastern thing was Eurasian. the only AF ship to fight in any part of Eurasia is the Jones. The AF would never name one of there ship the Bonaparte.

Western Eurasia was in Full revolt. !!!!!!


I don't remember Gundam Official specifically mentioning ZAFT fighting Eurasian troops on the Mediterranean Front, especially when Suez Base is a de facto AF base. Phantom Pain is LOGOS' militant wing as well as Alliance black ops forces. It doesn't matter if they're part of or not part of the Alliance. The fact is they are Alliance forces through and through, as shown by the reactions of the DSSD staff when Phantom Pain announces their presence to them. The Middle Eastern uprising is part of the general Western Eurasian revolt. The Jones and Bonaparte are both Phantom Pain, and by extension, AF ships. True, the AF would never name a ship Bonaparte, but remember that Phantom Pain has special powers allowing it to requisition any military asset it deems fit to conduct operations.

Allow me to raise several points missed in this discussion. Why should i demonize the AF? Because it is clear they are the most heavily infiltrated faction by Blue Cosmos/LOGOS. Evidence abound, including but not limited to:

1) The Alliance nuclear assault force attacking PLANT with nukes in early GSD hail from Arzachel Lunar Base, which is seen later in the series to specifically be the Atlantic main space base due to their President relocating there after Durandal proclaims the Destiny Plan.

2) The Azrael Conglomerate and other LOGOS corporations are deeply rooted in the Atlantic Federation. It was the Atlantic Federation which attacked Orb in Seed, and their AC-built 2nd-gen Gundams played a major role in the war from that point onwards.

3) Again, the Atlantic Federation practically forces every Earth-based faction to join the Alliance except for the Oceania Union. That fleet blocking Minerva at Orb belongs to the AF.

4) Djibril is seen specifically ordering President Joseph Copland to pacify Western Eurasia at least twice, and those MS squadrons seen occupying Western Eurasian settlements are implied to be from the Atlantic Federation. And since he is also the one ordering the Destroy to rampage across Western Europe and the de facto leader of the AF, whose armed forces have been shown time and again to have plenty of people screaming stuff like "Die all Coordinators!" and "For a blue and pure world!" i can safely say the Atlantic Federation is a LOGOS puppet state and also the one sending all the MS battalions to pacify Western Eurasia.

5) This is not the first time the AF has deliberately do something nasty to the Eurasians, as exemplified by them ratting out their Eurasian comrades in JOSH-A. Given the circumstances, they would have no compunctions slaughtering innocent Eurasian civilians.

Does that satisfy you, Lordyu?

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:06 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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1) the Djibril never ordered Copland to attack Eurasian. he made that decision by himself.

2) The Western Eurasian Uprising and revolt was against The Eurasian Gov't and the AF played No part. People alway make that assumption. Phantom pain is funded by LOGOS and the AF forces are quite separate. they are allowed to requisition weapons and personnel from all EA members. Read clearly what Gundam Official has to say

Quote:
When a new war breaks out between Earth and the PLANTs, the Eurasian Federation once again sides with the Atlantic Federation. Meanwhile, its citizens become increasingly vocal in their demands for independence. As the war continues, ZAFT forces begin to intervene on behalf of these independence movements, liberating their homes and cities from Eurasian Federation control.


3)Suez base was never an AF base. It was an is a Eurasian Base and just because the Jones was station there for a few moments that does not mean that it belongs to he AF.

4) th AF has show it self clearly to hate coordinators the most. that is not the point. Zaft has clearly been seen to be just as vicious. JOSH-A was bad in it self but we clearly see in Astry X that the EF and the AF were no friends in any manner. The EF was even planing War with the AF after that First War was Over. Yes it was bad and maybe unjust but considering the Way they see each other the EF if it had the chance would have done the same if it had the Chance.
Quote:
Quote:


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Sun Jun 17, 2007 2:15 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Question
Without Extended what good Pilots do the EA have to Fight? If you have not noticed they loose pilots left and right even with a number advantage that is not going to go down well with the public.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:29 am 
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Retconned MSV Ace

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lordyu said:
Quote:
Without Extended what good Pilots do the EA have to Fight? If you have not noticed they loose pilots left and right even with a number advantage that is not going to go down well with the public.

That actually is a very good point which I think is often overlooked certainly in the anime and to some extent also in the mangas. Given the problems EA has had (and continues to have) they should be in trouble with capable pilots now. Devastating wars in rapid succession, which have included superweapons demolishing whole bases with a casual swipe. This suggest they need to draft new pilots with a heavy hand, and given how easily they die, I doubt that is a very popular measure. However, I'd say the Coordinators are likelier to feel this pinch very soon, given their dropping birthrates.

So either you start to improve MS AI to allow for less-than-optimally-capable pilots to start filling the holes in the ranks, or manufacture some, like the Extended pilots. It is curious that the Coords, who already are products of genetic manipulation, aren't going as far as to clone or otherwise artificially add to their population, and it is indeed the xenophobe Naturals that make Extended kids.

Aside from that, lordyu asked about capable EA pilots. I think there are quite a few, some have been named like Rena Imelia, Edward Harrelson, and I am also certain that there are so called "quiet aces" in the background that just don't get visibility, given the focus of the mangas and animes.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 10:18 am 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

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Quote:
Djibril never ordered Copland to attack Eurasian. he made that decision by himself.


Seriously, rewatch Phase-22. In the opening scenes, Djibril clearly asks Copeland why the war is stalling and says "Its stalling because you guys have failed to keep problems like the rebellions in Western Eurasia under control!" and then demands Copeland to reinforce efforts on that front. Not evidence enough?

Quote:
The Western Eurasian Uprising and revolt was against The Eurasian Gov't and the AF played No part. People alway make that assumption. Phantom pain is funded by LOGOS and the AF forces are quite separate. they are allowed to requisition weapons and personnel from all EA members.


Yes it's just against Central Eurasia, but when ZAFT was drawn in, that automatically makes it an issue for the Alliance and thus the AF sent in troops like Phantom Pain and regular army forces to quell the unrest. Phantom Pain, as i said, is LOGOS' military wing but is also an Alliance unit. Otherwise, it would not be designated Earth Alliance 81st Independent Battalion now would it?

Quote:
Suez base was never an AF base. It was an is a Eurasian Base and just because the Jones was station there for a few moments that does not mean that it belongs to he AF.


Nobody even stated its an Eurasian Base. What i know is, in GSD, whenever the scene switches to Suez, there's a line that reads "Suez, Alliance Forces Base" , which basically means it is accessible also to the AF. And since Neo and his PP troops are there with their own battlegroup, that makes Suez a de facto AF base because it's the Alliance stronghold in that region to counter ZAFT's Black Sea Fleet.

Quote:
Zaft has clearly been seen to be just as vicious. JOSH-A was bad in it self but we clearly see in Astry X that the EF and the AF were no friends in any manner. The EF was even planing War with the AF after that First War was Over. Yes it was bad and maybe unjust but considering the Way they see each other the EF if it had the chance would have done the same if it had the Chance.


Correction: ZAFT is as vicious only in Seed. The EF and AF are not friends in any manner and I'm aware of that. I suggest you read one of my previous posts on the state of diplomatic relations between various realms. But i don't know where does it even says the EF was planning a war with the AF after the BVW when everybody's armed forces were decimated and there was still the SA War of Independence. Case in point: in X Astray, the Eurasians discarded Team X because the AF supplied them with NJCs. If they have access to things like NJCs, then they wouldn't be so dumb as to consider a war with the AF, especially when the AF still has a better armed forces.

As for Extendeds, apart from black ops and whatnot, Alliance pilots are equals of your average ZAFT grunt. It's just that GSD likes to portray EAF pilots as dumbos who have no idea how to pilot mobile suits. This is what i'm trying to set up here with my fic detailing the Alliance post-Seed. The Blue Cosmos/LOGOS infiltration and a weak command structure has severely compromised the integrity and competence of the Alliance armies.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:23 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Info on Phantom Pain

Quote:
Phantom Pain

Phantom pain is the "irregular" Special Forces which answers to the highest council "Logos" of the Blue Cosmos. This unit is a special army that the Blue Cosmic organized privately. The Blue Cosmos, not receiving the dependant military power from the Earth Alliance, formed the group as a way of symbolizing their personal intentions. Phantom Pain's parent organization is comprised of Alliance personnel & equipment. Notices issued from the Earth Alliance's upper echelon, in situations where goods and personnel are requested by Phantom Pain, are informal but are to be responded to without delay. With that assistance, Phanton Pain can take in provisions and furnishings wherever they go. But only Logos and representatives of Logos possess command authority over them. Even within the Alliance, only a tiny few of its leaders are aware of the particulars regarding Phantom Pain. As a private army, they aren't bound by the armistice treaty entered into by the Alliance and ZAFT. The treaty prohibits both the Alliance and ZAFT from having N-Jammer Cancellers, nuclear weapons, Mirage Colloid, loading ships with Phase Shift armor, and possessing nuclear-powered mobile suits but Phantom Pain disregards that and executes operations using ships that carry such things. And since they are funded behind the scenes by Blue Cosmos, the equipment they get is radical but extravagant. [Note:: This portion from Gunota since I'm too lazy to research]


It is still a stretch to implement the AF in the Western Eurasian Revolt. Just because they are all part of the Alliance that does not mean that AF troops will be in Eurasia. What I see people try to do is overplay and exaggerate the AF involvement. It was Logos forces that went to Central Eurasia. example, the US is part of Nato so does that make French, Spanish or dutch bases defacto US bases. In astry X Garcias Boss clearly states that the AF will be the EF's Enemy. If the AF never used EF troops in Joshua A and the war had ended the way it did the EF would have acted.


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:19 am 
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Retconned MSV Ace

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lordyu said:
Quote:
If the AF never used EF troops in Joshua A and the war had ended the way it did the EF would have acted.

Well EF and AF are opposing blocs after all, so the tension is undoubtedly there. However, you make it seem like EF was just about to attack AF, and in a way that justifies JOSH-A because it secured the AFs flanks on Earth. Fair enough, but you can't say that is not a morally bankrupt act. Instead of rather sacrificing their own, the AF (quite sensible from their POV) sacrificed EF soldiers. Now, if you make the claim that the EF was prepared to attack the AF, then it should also apply the other way around (the AF hasn't really shown pacifist tendencies in the past :P ). As such, it would follow that the AF knowingly set up the JOSH-A incidence so that they could attack EF later on. So using your argument, if the war had ended differently, then the AF would've acted on Earth against EF as well. And finally, NATO is an open military organization, and by that extension the analogy with Phantom Pain doesn't work on any levels even if I do understand the point you're trying to bring across.

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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:28 am 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

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Your quote on Gundam Official's article on Phantom Pain still proves that everything i've heard and read about them is they're an Alliance blackops unit and also LOGOS' military wing. Nothing's changed.

Quote:
It is still a stretch to implement the AF in the Western Eurasian Revolt. Just because they are all part of the Alliance that does not mean that AF troops will be in Eurasia. What I see people try to do is overplay and exaggerate the AF involvement.


That's your view on things. I've already given you the evidence to prove the AF was involved.

Quote:
the US is part of Nato so does that make French, Spanish or dutch bases defacto US bases.


Yes, in times of war. They ARE afterall, a mutual nonagression pact and military alliance, allowing member nations to use each other's bases to support each other. Which is practically what happens in GSD.

Quote:
In astry X Garcias Boss clearly states that the AF will be the EF's Enemy. If the AF never used EF troops in Joshua A and the war had ended the way it did the EF would have acted.


Did you read the state of diplomatic relations article? I have stressed time and again that i'm aware the AF and EF are constant enemies but the BVW left everybody drained of forces and i will say again there's also the SA War of Independence to keep the Alliance occupied. Don't bring this issue up all the time without new points to support it. For the record, although they are enemies, they are members of the same organization, and they will put aside their own differences, however temporarily to fight a common enemy:ZAFT.

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 Post Posted: Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:36 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Gulnahan

A Middle Eastern city located on the south shore of the Caspian Sea, which is also the site of a large powerplant. The Earth Alliance forces have occupied Gulnahan as a bridgehead to maintain control of Eurasia, and they have constructed a fortification known as the Lohengrin Gate to guard the valley that leads to the city itself. However, the local population strongly opposes the Earth Alliance occupation, and has formed a resistance movement.
Quote:

United States of South America

A nation which formerly controlled much of Central and South America, and collaborated with the Atlantic Federation in the construction of the Porta Panama mass driver. Before the outbreak of war, the United States of South America had aligned itself with the PLANTs and made arrangements to covertly exchange shipments of food and manufactured goods, and it refused to join the Earth Alliance once open hostilities began. On February 19, C.E. 70, Alliance forces launched an armed invasion of this nation, and its territory was annexed by the Atlantic Federation. However, its independence is restored with the conclusion of the Junius Treaty on March 10, C.E. 72.


Phantom Pain


The nickname of the Earth Alliance's 81st Autonomous Mobile Group, which carries out the attack on Armory One. Although this elite special forces organization is made up of Earth Alliance personnel and equipment, it is actually an irregular unit under the direct control of the Logos secret society. Phantom Pain has the authority to borrow resources from the regular Earth Alliance forces as it sees fit, and it employs forbidden technology such as Mirage Colloid stealth systems despite the restrictions of the Junius Treaty.
Quote:


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 Post subject:
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 4:56 am 
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Retconned MSV Ace

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You could maybe give some other opinions and basis for argument beyond quoting the GundamOfficial.

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 Post Posted: Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:28 pm 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

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Seconded. I have no idea what you are trying to argue without your own input.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:49 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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What Does having the AF in Eurasia do? Is there presence needed for anything other that villanizing them anymore. What is you plans for Zaft and Orb?


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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:54 pm 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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1) the AF have shown a hatred of the plant and there is no argument about that. I re read some of Ravager work.

2) The point I last put up was to show that the AF had little to do with the Western Eurasian problem. You are increasing the AF involvements to victimize the WEF. The AF should not be involved in the Western Eurasian problem because it's not needed. Look at all the evidence and there show More EF gov't involvement than AF involvement. You are using extensions as evidence for the AF. The AF is not to be blamed for Western Eurasian. Even if AF troops were involvemed they would in nowhere be the majority. Do not try to put more blame on the AF. It has enough things to deal with. the conversation you sited with Djibril and copland it also says that the AF was not ready and the Damage to the AF was more than they thought. the AF first priority was to itself and not to get involved with Western Eurasia.

will Logos be that same as in GSD or will it be deferent. Will it be the merchants of death crap or just an organization dedicated to the Destroying the plants.


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 Post Posted: Sat Nov 03, 2007 9:44 pm 
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The AF will be balanced out in the future, man. Be patient!

As for LOGOS, i think they'll play a similar role to post-Ruusan Sith.

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 Post subject: AD timeline problems
 Post Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 1:06 am 
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Cardboard Leo Ace

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Overall, this is a really incredible timeline, with a huge amount of detail. However, I've got a problem with the pre-CE timeline part of it. As was mentioned before, it is extremely pressed. I know there was discussion of technological advancement because of international cooperation as an explanation, but not only is this infeasible but there are other problems as well.

First of all, the idea of reaching "terminal" oil (read: little left) in less than ten years is ludicrous. Conservative estimates put that at least 70 years in the future at current consumption, with coal and natural gas reserves for at least another 50 after that. Further, OPEC nations would not then exacerbate the problem with an arms build up and wouldn't have need to in the first place. The UN is extremely ineffective at actually forcing anyone to do anything, and pissing off OPEC is the last thing that the UN, or any industrial nation for that matter, would do. And finally, if there really was basically no oil left, OPEC what cease to exist and the governments of those countries would fall. To take Saudi Arabia for an example, the royal family is still around in one of the most conservative muslim nations in the middle east because it controls the oil wealth of the nation. Also, it can basically count on US support should anything even remotely threatening happen (e.g. Gulf War 1). But if there was no longer oil, or even no longer enough oil, the income would end, or drop precipitously, and international support would falter. That would result in revolutions (probably similar to the Iranian revolution against the Shah) and an end to any sort of consorted alliance in the region between rich, powerful, selfish governments predicated on oil profits.

Next, while it is true that cooperation on a global scale can lead to increased technological development, history has shown that it is more often competition that drives creation and invention (e.g. developments because of the Cold War). But even if that were the case, a colonial expedition to the moon in a mere 15 years is not even sort of possible. Not only would it be financially stupid, there being no particularly good reason for a nation or group of nations to build a huge ass ship to haul 30,000 people to the moon, it just would not happen at that scale that quickly. There would have to be a way greater concern than "terminal" oil quantities or a lot more time for the impetus to reach the point of establishing such a huge colony. But beyond Moon stuff, relatively within our reach, the Mars colonization stuff is just pure fiction. First of all, we haven't even sent a manned exploration team to Mars, and just sending an Apollo sized operation would be hugely expensive and an extremely time consuming undertaking. So again, you'd need a LOT of time for something like that to be feasible. And the cryo tech and terraforming equipment? Yeah, not going to be available within 50 years. Not even sort of. Now, I could see enclosed shelters working on Mars, maybe even a ton of them joined together with enough room for tens of thousands of people. But why? Where is the benefit? So there's tension/war on Earth. Been there, done that and the human race has survived. And there is no economic or technological benefit from it. So why?

And then the whole Titan thing. For starters, if the navigational system was so off that the ship missed Mars on the way from Earth, how did it get to Saturn, let alone Titan? And then, the terraforming process happens way too quickly. Terraforming would take hundreds of years, not decades to complete. And you can't just terraform 50% of a planet, or moon in this case. The process requires shifts in atmosphere and soil make-up that take a long, long time to establish to the point of a self-sustaining, viable ecosystem. You could not survive in a half-way, even three-quarters terraformed environment any more easily than you could if it had not been terraformed in the first place. A 25% difference in athmospheric make-up alone would kill an exposed human. And Titan is a really brutal place. So way more time would be needed.

The last specific point I'll deal with is the whole military/diplomatic side to things. There are a number of problems, primarily in the nature of the nations you talk about and their interactions. Firstly, the notion of a Russian Hegemony died with the USSR. Russia can barely keep itself together, let alone hold sway. While it still likes to keep around its old army, its in reality pretty ill-trained and ill-equipped. EU nations alone would probably kick the ZOINKS out of any Russian attack today, but beyond that, there is no way that the US would not intervene, especially if there was an invasion of England. But I'll get back to the US in a second. Another problem is China. The idea that Taiwan would be annexed by threat of force just wouldn't be true, as that already is the case. China, in the status quo, threatens and belly-aches with regularity about Taiwan, but nothing has happened. Beyond that, the Taiwanese have armed themselves and would not just accede because of a threat. The notion of China invading and holding sway over Japan is equally absurd. In the case of both of these situations, the U.S. would step in and would fight. While it can be argued that the U.S. is declining in economic and international power, it is not in military power, and will not for the conceivable future. It is too much of a focus and tradition now. So there would need to be a lot longer time period for the U.S. to loose enough power for China to engage in such invasions without fear of repercussion. And I hope nobody throws an argument about China's manpower, or growing economic and military power at me, because it just doesn't bear out in this time frame. Maybe in 70 years, these scenarios would be feasible, but for now it just couldn't happen, even if China did put a huge fraction of its population in arms, because they would need to cross the Sea of Japan or the Taiwan Strait to get there. And the US Navy is bigger than the next 17 largest navies... combined. And the final step would be the use of nuclear weapons, and I think we really would if China tried to take something like Japan. China's delivery systems might, might be able to hit California, which would be very damaging and terrible. But the U.S. could easily cover every inch of china with nuclear fueled destruction at the cost of a relatively small percentage of its nuclear arsenal. The conventional and nuclear disparity between the U.S. and the rest of the world is just too great.

Okay, to sum up: It may seem like I'm trying to defeat this timeline in detail, and in all honesty that is basically what I'm doing. I'm trying to point out that the extreme rapidity with which such large scale changes occur is impossible in this world, assuming, of course, that this is based off of the status quo. If not, all of my analysis is obviously off topic and you can ignore me. Otherwise, there would need to be a lot more time in between these things. For the political/military side of things given here, I would hazard a guess at between 100 and 150 years being more like it. Technologically, and this doesn't even count the cryo-tech/terraforming tech, just the advances that would be necessary for the tech shown in GS and GSD, you would need more like 300 years. And if you wanted cryo or terra, I would have to say more like 500. Sorry, but I just don't think it can bear out otherwise.

Otherwise, like I said, this is a great and well thought out timeline. Even the A.D. stuff could be possible, just not in our world. Please don't take this personally. I do hope to see more of your stuff and don't at all expect you to change the initial timeline. I simply want readers to know that the beginning stuff at least is not quite canon, and if it turns out that the creators of SEED have the same time-frame, they are either not dealing in the status quo or they are wrong. No bones about it; dems da facts. At any rate, thanks for reading this long-ass post.

Finally, if you think I'm full of ZOINKS or want to know more about particular points I raised, or even want a potential timeline from me, just say so. I'd be happy to back up my analysis, I'm just too lazy to right now. Anyways, thanks again. Later.


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 Post Posted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 3:42 am 
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Okawara x Katoki Love Child

Joined: Wed Dec 20, 2006 12:59 pm
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http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/background/timeline.html

This would be the official Seed website. I based mine off it, just expanded a lot of it. I havent got the time to continue my project, but your extremely detailed analysis has got me humbled..lol. I'm not a technical man, so i just write what i think is right.

And for the record, i don't think the US can fight a war with both the Chinese and a Russia pumped-up by Europe, Middle East and Central Asia simultaneously.

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