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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:23 pm 
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HiMAT Spammer
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Tablets also get some getting used to. It feels completely different from drawing on paper despite being nearly the same principle. PEN TO SURFACE but nope, different.


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
Ryujin has a point, the only reason my stuff isn't any cleaner is because using the mouse for photoshopping lines drives me bonkers (it's not very sensitive at all)

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:33 pm 
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Why do you just use the line tool?


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:38 pm 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
communication mishap, it don't use a line tool, I'm saying its hard for me to make a line with say the airbrush tool because of how insensitive my damn mouse is. it's like trying to draw while holding your pencil with your off hand like its a knife....it doesn't happen.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:45 pm 
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Oh I meant why don't you, not why do you.

Why use airbrush though?


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 6:56 pm 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
I'm talking about cleaning line art, if you use an brush with lower hardness you have more room for error as you get close to your line work. but in general having about as much maneuverability as a brick is not going to do you any favors when working in fine detail.

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Crash's Mecha Based RPG
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ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:03 pm 
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Ok but an airbrush? Really?


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:11 pm 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
yep.. airbrush is one of the few tools I actually know how to use correctly XD. did I mention I just recently updated from 6 to CS4?

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ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 7:30 pm 
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I use 3, it's the most stable I think. I got a free copy of Photoshop elements 6 with my tablet tho


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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:15 pm 
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crashlegacy14 wrote:
I'm talking about cleaning line art, if you use an brush with lower hardness you have more room for error as you get close to your line work. but in general having about as much maneuverability as a brick is not going to do you any favors when working in fine detail.


This can also be achieved without resorting to the airbrush by setting the brush opacity to about 50% (or lower). Using this setting while colouring will also help you achieve a hand-painted effect without resorting to special brushes, if that's your preference. You can also just zoom in a lot; since the mouse's movement isn't magnified in proportion to the zoom, you get the equivalent of finer mouse control (of course, you end up losing your sense of 'the big picture', but it's a case of give-and-take).

If you require ruler-straight lines, you can click at one end, then shift-click at the other end of the line that you want--instant straight line, with either the eraser or the brush tool.

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 Post Posted: Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:57 pm 
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Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
May I make the caveman suggestion of just having a clean looking raw scan? =)

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c353/Seraphic_Zero/raw/scan0043editraw.jpg
(By the way, Crash's notebook removal method only works in color.)

So that's the raw for Celestial Gundam. I'd have an even better example that I drew on bristol paper, but I don't want to spoil anything. Needless to say, I spend a crapload of time on my lineart, but it looks good and clean in the end and I am proud of it. (And thankfully, I have to screw around less in photoshop afterwards as a direct result.) This lineart took several days, StrikeR, so I was surprised when you said your rendition only took a couple of hours. The difference was in how much time we spent on cleaning the lines, I guess. (That, and I had to actually design this thing! =p)

Of course I have to sketch out things at first, but I have a method to clean the lineart. If I describe the method, it'll sound like I have OCD, but I like it a lot better over tracing in another pencil color or over inking it in shop. (Of course, there are people who can do this very well, like VR.) You'd think tracing is an accurate process, but when it gets down to finer details, you can really get thrown off. Even if you trace your line off center slightly, it can shift the look of your drawing. And I'm talking precision on the scale of the single thickness of a line. Also when you trace, the lines lose a lot of their organic look (the varying thicknesses) and the traced product looks extremely stale.

My cleanup method involves controlling the quality of each individual line. Of course, this occurs after the drawing is made and I'm not changing up design or geometry. To remove that sketchy line, I lightly erase that one line to where I can still see it, and then I redraw the line. And here's the kicker: I do this for every line on the entire drawing. Yeah, it can be hard work, but because I'm doing this one line at a time, the lineart still retains a good organic look (because I am essentially drawing it again) and there is even opportunity to tighten the look of the entire drawing, or make fixes.

It helps to be careful with the lines you draw, and to also have certain tools: a white eraser, as Crash has already suggested, and maybe a set of pencils with varying lead size. I use 5mm and 3mm. I find that the 5mm makes for the best looking lines, since the 3mm is too thin. I mostly use the 3mm for its super-precise eraser. =p It helps very much to draw lightly so you don't have big eraser smudges in case you have to make fixes. You can always darken the lines later. Seriously, don't darken lines until the lineart is "done". Even when a part looks good, darkening it might be a mistake because it could look bad when the rest of the drawing is done.

So this method isn't something that I created intentionally. It just kinda ended up happening. >_>;

So if you follow this method (and don't draw on notebook paper) your photoshop cleanup method will consist of a single Levels adjustment. Done.

As for another method for cleaning things in Shop, I zoom in like crazy like Ryujin said. And I clean using the pen tool because it pretty much gives the highest level of precision: I pick the exact pixel I want to clean up. What I do is use the pen tool to select the negative space with points and fill it in with white. It leaves your lineart surrounded by perfectly clean negative space. Probably a psychotic method, but super effective depending on what you want. You have to do this before you lift the lines though.

So this is how you do things if you're avoiding the use of Shop too much. (I'm a complete noob, haha.) I suggest that you learn a good balance between having a clean raw and knowing good Shop techniques.

(edit: fixed dumb typo)

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GW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel


Last edited by Seraphic on Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:17 am 
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Mysterious Masked Dude
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
Sera's got some valid points (when does he not?). I forgot to mention the line art eeeds to be scanned in color. in general the more cleaning to do before scanning the less you have to do afterward. though the only time I use the "redraw a line method" (working title) is when I'm trying to draw straight lines or an area has become too dark/bloated from numerous line strokes (sounds a little sick). unless it's a particularly long line it's going to be one in a single stroke (I'm going to stop using the word 'stroke' i swear).

one thing I can think of to help both speed up production time and line control would be to actually sketch, for instance my "warm up sketching" is done while listening to music usually within the span of a particular track example.

for reference I use only 5mm lead pens, white erasers (both the big brick ones and the ones on end of lead pens). and draw on either stock printer paper or sketchpad paper.

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ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.


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 Post Posted: Sat Aug 29, 2009 1:43 pm 
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Thanks for the input guys, I'll be sure to use some of those tips. Most likely Sera's as I actually do have one of those nice little pencil sets (my Science teacher of all people gave it to me) but I don't use it as much as I should. I stick with my generic Bic 7mm mechanical pencil. And I don't spend a lot of time on my drawings either, so I guess I should really start to take my time. :lol:

Well here's what I did over the week of visiting my Grandparents house.

Another Unnamed Mecha
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww24 ... img010.png

As you can see I used the Laevatein as a base, and worked from there. And I'm actually starting to prefer a straight forward line art style like this. But I guess it's only because line art from an angle is actually harder so I guess it makes this easier by comparison. I intend for it to use a swiveling arm mounted Rifle/Shield (Think of Exia's blade rifle except the entire thing swivels and theres a shield too) and some other thing, but that's to come soon. :wink: Oh yeah, this was originally two separate pics, but I stuck em together for your convienence.

Comments? Questions? Almost Forgot, Its a no-name, so feel free to suggest one ^^

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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:08 am 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
some people find the front view easier, some (like me) the side view, and even others find using the 3/4ths view just as easy as any other. for me designing is easier using straight on views (front, side, back) I also hear that those three are also the three views 3D modeliers need to create renders of said designs. the 3/4ths view however give views the most comprehensive view of a design in a single image which tends to help you get the design across easier.

I dub thee "The Bob."

I love how your style is progressing the line work is getting crisper and stronger. *notices the p90* nice gun btw. my first question is what are those things on it's hips and shins? so far to me this frame looks to be made for speed rather then stand up (heavyarms style) fighting.

Personally I'd like to one of your next designs to be a heavyweight monster of a mecha.I know this is kinda hypocritical of me to say but try drawing the entire length of the legs when you draw would otherwise stop at the thighs, this will give you practice on one of the things that I personally have problems with leg proportions (if I had the chance to I'd slap my younger self in the back of the head and tell me the same. that and learn how to pronounce german names, but that's a different story.)

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Crash's Mecha Design Works
Crash's Mecha Based RPG
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ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.


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 Post Posted: Sun Aug 30, 2009 9:43 pm 
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Thanks. I wasn't lying when I said I'd take your guys advice ;) I personally would like to draw on the 3/4 view all the time, but drawing from the front view helps me make the lines crisper.

The design was meant for speed, and if you could tell, that means is that I did my job :) I was planning for my next design to be some uber gattai mecha from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagaan, but I haven't done a heavy type in a LONG time so I'll make that priority.The things on the side of the hips and legs are ; Legs: Beam Daggers Hips: Pistols (They're gonna be Glock 18s cept' mecha sized and shoot beamz :D) And I usually don't draw below the thighs, but I wanted to try lol.

And if you guys want I'll show you the only heavy class mecha I drew a few years ago. :)

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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 11, 2009 10:14 pm 
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Location: Inside the barrel of Wing Zero's left Buster Rifle.
Glad to know you're gonna try Seraph's method of lineart clean-up. Also known as "the poor man's" method. :x

http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/Strike_Rouge_Mk2/img010.png

Oh hoho, this is a cool one. I like the build of the frame, and the geometry looks very interesting. Some elements in the head look very familiar. I see what you did there. :wink:

Like crash said, your skill is increasing rapidly--probably past mine already. I used to shade my lineart, too, but I found that it was a pain in the butt when I had to clean it up in Shop. But those were the old days where I had to remove notebook paper lines. If you shade the lineart with pencil, it's possible you can pretty much circumvent any shading using a program. I haven't gotten to try that out though.

I also used to draw in the 3/4 view, but I was always struggling with proportion and foreshortening because of it. (I suck at perspective.) Recently, I've been drawing mecha front on at a slight angle. Of course the proportion is better, but what's kicking me in the balls now is keeping a consistent symmetry! You'll find that the symmetry can be improved a lot in this recent drawing, too, as it has a few errors in that regard. I like your action poses a lot, though. Why don't I ever get around to doing those??

How about Cerres or Cirrus as a name? Or Susan.

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"Red particles are bad, they mutate you into... dead? But green/blue particles are good, apparently, for reasons and for purposes yet to be determined. Isn't science sometimes nicely color-coded?"
-Antares

GW: The Sword . Sera's Art . Gameplay . The Lost Citadel


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 Post Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:16 pm 
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Hey there guys! Schools been carving drawing out of my schedule lately so I haven't been drawing lately, But whenever I could I've been sketching up some stuff for you guys (And so my thread won't die a shameful death) and here's something I thought of recently;

GNW-10000
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww24 ... img011.jpg

I thought of it as the link between Kyrios and the Thrones, seeing as how the UN captured it, I'm sure they put some of it's tech into something by the point the Arche was made. Crappy line art blah. The little bottom thing is what it looks like transformed from the bottom so you can see where everything goes. It looks weird cause I wasn't used to the long legs and arms so by the time I was drawing the legs.. It was crooked. :\

And Thanks Sera for your overly awesome critique. You shouldn't say I'm better than you, it makes me feel like a jerk. And besides, I'm only good when I have something to base my stuff off of. :P


And Crash, I'm working on that heavy mecha, I swear! I have a few sketched and ideas, but I'm not putting them up yet. >.<

______________________________________

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdnfUbm2_hM

And now for some more noob Q's. I recently saw this vid and really thought this tool was .. cool. (Unintended rhyming >.<) It's called Paint tool SAI or something like that, and I was wondering if you guys have ever used it or would suggest I use it on my line art, seeing as it looks like its pretty much intended for drawing enhancement and stuff like that. It seems like a good tool when I end up with a good sketch but don't have time for cleaning it up Sera's way xD and could also help me learn how to use my image editing programs much better.

*EDIT* Random spelling or grammatical error. And I forgot what I was originally going to add. >.>"

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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 11:23 am 
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http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww24 ... 2/DONE.jpg

HERE IT IS CRASH!!

I spent all day & night drawing and cleaning this beauty. Through the day, night, drama (Yes there was drama) and pain. I present my first ever super duper clean, edited Mobile Suit, and the first Heavy class mecha I have done since four years.


Please comment on how I did.

I feel like I nailed the two forearm weapons really well. They look.. official-ish. ^^

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Zeonic Glory wrote:
Sorry to ask this but, what does kawaii mean?


Be kawaii and visit the Art and Multimedia section.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 12:01 pm 
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Location: In the Zaku's cockpit. Yes, the one that just exploded.
Strike_Rouge_Mk2 wrote:
http://i724.photobucket.com/albums/ww241/Strike_Rouge_Mk2/DONE.jpg

HERE IT IS CRASH!!

I spent all day & night drawing and cleaning this beauty. Through the day, night, drama (Yes there was drama) and pain. I present my first ever super duper clean, edited Mobile Suit, and the first Heavy class mecha I have done since four years.

Please comment on how I did.

I feel like I nailed the two forearm weapons really well. They look.. official-ish. ^^


there's always drama when you're going back in to lineart and cleaning it up ("Whaaa, where did that line go?" "what the hell's this line for" "why are all my lines so damn ugly!!" "stupid paper stock!" *RAGE*)

I have to ask the question why are both these guys leaning?

I like "Mr. Done!" (that's his name, no arguments) I see a fore arm mounted gattling on the left arm, with the drum on his left shoulder, a I assume beam rifle mounted on his right forearm (+10 if it doubles as a beam saber), a big sword on his left upper back, and some other weapon on his right upper back. nice rounded armament. echoing you I'm most pleased with the look of those forearm mounted weapons. you can easily tell what they are and how big they are.

it also looks like he's got something going on with the side pieces of his skirts, what are those? I'm guessing those are head vulcans in between the two V fins.

now for the not so good parts. the lower right leg. seriously. I see parts going off into weird perspectives left and right -the ankle guard thingy...yeah seriously. for a heavy set mecha, the hands and even the arms (to a much lesser extent) seem too thin. like wise I'd broaden the shoulders by increasing the width of the upper torso similar in nature to your other units. I see a number of places where you didn't go through with a line completely (left ankle guard for example) and it gives a inconsistent look to the parts composing your mecha.

alright ..I'd add more but there's a train wreck in my head. I blame the fact that I've been awake for over 15 hours. I get goofy and loopy (if you couldn't tell yet) tell you what. "homework" do some really stupid quick sketches -with out erasing more then absolutely necessary, scan them without cleaning them up and I'm sure me and sera will have some constructive criticism for you. (and maybe other people too XD).

------------/edit/----------
damn typos.

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ShadowCell wrote: Perspective. It's great.
CrashLegacy14 wrote: my immortal enemy: Perspective.


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 Post Posted: Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:49 pm 
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Okay. Now to actually reply in whole to someone's comment.

Quote:
I have to ask the question why are both these guys leaning?

well, the GN-10000 was a complete mishap and it wasn't supposed to be leaning like that. Actually, it's like that because by the time I had gotten to the point where the feet would normally end (on a normal sized mech) it had already been twisted off the original path, and I just left it since it's just a sketch. As for "Mr.Done" he's leaning over to sorta emphasize his largeness over you and what have you.

Quote:
it also looks like he's got something going on with the side pieces of his skirts, what are those?

Super-Compact beam cannons. You grab em by that tube-ish handle that is provided.

Quote:
now for the not so good parts. the lower right leg. seriously. I see parts going off into weird perspectives left and right -the ankle guard thingy...yeah seriously. for a heavy set mecha, the hands and even the arms (to a much lesser extent) seem too thin. like wise I'd broaden the shoulders by increasing the width of the upper torso similar in nature to your other units. I see a number of places where you didn't go through with a line completely (left ankle guard for example) and it gives a inconsistent look to the parts composing your mecha.


Yeah, you got me for being lazy and not filling in some of the lines that were supposed to go in certain spot's throwing the perspective off by a bit. I also entirely forgot to go over the bottom rear leg booster which made it seem like one leg was much larger than the other. It could also help if you were more specific about which things are messed up. Now, I hate to disagree with you, but the shoulders and the distance between them seems to be fine along with the arms. I say so for the arms cause those weapons are pretty much mounted on that spot at all times which already adds to the strain of lifting. And now for the hands, I say the right one (The Mechs Right) looks absolutely perfect by my standards, but I'll agree with you on the left one, which seems to have difficulty clutching itself.

As for the homework, I'll be sure to upload more simple sketches up.

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